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 My Thoughts on Stopping Violent Crime

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Crossfire the Crusader

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PostSubject: Re: My Thoughts on Stopping Violent Crime   Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:21 am

I'd rather be the person who does something and makes a mistake than be the person who closes the window while Kitty Genovese is murdered in the street!

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Who are you? I've never heard of you nor have I been given reason to take you seriously, I'm sure lots of people share my opinion on this matter. Which is why you got your initial response, if you had made an introduction thread or at least made of point of saying who you are you probably would've been received better. (Sleepless)


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PostSubject: Re: My Thoughts on Stopping Violent Crime   Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:23 am

Crossfire the Crusader wrote:
I'd rather be the person who does something and makes a mistake than be the person who closes the window while Kitty Genovese is murdered in the street!

It's really one or the other? honestly? I respect that everyone has their own view on what they would do in such a situation. Literally every single RLSH has their own view on how they would handle this type of situation.

But we have to take a look at (and I really hate how this word gets thrown around in these forums) the reality of this situation. What exactly is it you are going to encounter when you come across a "violent crime"? Is it one guy beating up some old lady to get her purse? Is it a couple of girls jumping another girl they don't like? Is it the crazy guy trying to stab his ex girlfriend to death? Is it five gang members stomping a rival who was unfortunate enough to get caught alone?

Are you alone? Do you have three friends with you? Are you actually IN FACT trained to handle this type of situation? (not anyone specifically, I'm speaking generally). Which situation would it do any good at all for you to jump in to? Which situation ends with you getting curb stomped? Which situation can you actually de-escalate verbally?

No, if you are thinking that ANYONE here is saying "do nothing", then you are wrong. Apathy is the base reason we are all here. I've said before more than once that anyone considering doing this should make an attempt to at the very least get security level training to teach them what to do in certain situations and everyone doing this needs to have a crystal clear understanding of what civilians can and can't do where the law is concerned (this is also covered by security training)

It comes down to safety - Safety for both you and the victim (and in some cases for the assailant as well). If you are going to go patrolling for crime, do not go alone. Understand what role you are playing in the patrol. One should be in charge of emergency calls. If you come across a violent crime, that individual needs to immediately call the police. The call is just as, if not more important than jumping in and helping (argue all you want) because the person calling is relaying information about the assailants, possible license plate and car description if the assailant flees the scene, and ultimately is responsible for setting both police and medical aid in motion while the event is still taking place.

Sometimes the act of calling the police and announcing it loudly will be enough to break up the situation, sometimes it won't. While this is happening, the other members of the patrol will be taking actions to secure the victim. VIOLENT RESPONSE SHOULD BE THE ABSOLUTE LAST RESORT. Yes, this means you are going to have to seriously control your emotions, because you're probably going to want to cause great harm to the assailant. This is natural, but if you are out in full gear and armor and beat the crap out of the guy, then I'll give you three guesses where you end up when it's all over. Is this starting to make sense now?

Just be smart. That's all I'm saying. Use your head. When you don't, bad things happen.
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Crossfire the Crusader

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PostSubject: Re: My Thoughts on Stopping Violent Crime   Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:30 am

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I agree that safety is an issue...but MY training and MY exeperience have been that actions speak louder than words...The first action is to make sure the police are called when possible, but I have always chosen to put my safety second to those who are in danger. The link above is just one circumstance where I have intervened in a situation to protect someone else.

What Im saying deep down is we can keep having this debate or we can do something BUT when the fertilizer hits the fan you have to choose to act or not to act...its those times that excuses are no longer acceptible...its those times that people die when others dont act.

For now, get as much training as you need. If you feel that you arent ready to face a dangerous situation then don't patrol...at least not alone

BUT...realize that situations present themselves in the most unlikely of places...The story above happened in my apartment building...Kitty Genovese died in the street outside her home.

Statistical evidence tells us that police officers on patrol are likely to encounter a violent crime in progress on average of once every seven years.

A RLSH on patrol is more likely to encounter a dangerous situation ONLY because that is their only focus. Of course this means they need to be ready to act...on the street, at home, and wherever you may be when trouble happens.

In the past three weeks I've faced down several violent drunks in the course of my job...Each time I called security - who is supposed to call the police - and each time I had the situation resolved before the security or the police could arrive. A few months ago I even had a situation where the polic made the situation worse...and then arrested the victim.

Over the course of my life, I've been in a prison riot, ridden along on ambulance calls, saved people from choking to death, dragged crackheads out of motel rooms where they were beating people, stopped a convenient store robbery, and stopped a murder just to name a few things but I know that at any time I could make a mistake that could get me or someone else hurt...its just a fact that we all have to face.

Never allow yourself to become so confident that you think you cannot make a mistake, and never allow yourself to be so insecure that you fail to take action. (you may quote me on that)

But let me make one thing clear...I am not saying anyone is slacking off or doing it wrong...I am not encouraging anyone to act a certain way. BUT when the discussion leans toward not acting due to fear of making a mistake it irritates me...hence my statement earlier.

Let me try to make it more clear...(I hope)...let's look at the infamous "Phoenix Jones Pepper Spray Incident."

Some people thnk PJ handeled the situation incorrectly...somethink PJ handled it well...and others think PJ did some things right and some things wrong...There has been a lot of heated discussion about that.

BUT...The one thing that I dont think anyone would say is that PJ should have stood back and done nothing...and I'm certain that the man who was being beaten on the ground is glad that someone did something.

If you dont feel ready to get out there and patrol, then assess your abilities and do what you can...even if its just handing out fliers for missing kids (which is IMHO pretty important) or handing out sandwiches...But be ready to act when you have to because you never know when your sandwich handout could explode into a gang fight and you will have to choose to risk your life for someone else.

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Who are you? I've never heard of you nor have I been given reason to take you seriously, I'm sure lots of people share my opinion on this matter. Which is why you got your initial response, if you had made an introduction thread or at least made of point of saying who you are you probably would've been received better. (Sleepless)


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PostSubject: Re: My Thoughts on Stopping Violent Crime   Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:02 am

I've been thinking about this for a while, and I feel if I start patroling then I'll bring a friend along with and have them call the police while filming the situcation if I had to intervene. That way we have evidence of what happened, I'm working with the police, and if the situation does look hairy back up is just minutes away, and once the proper authorities arrive I'd back off. I simply want to protect the innocent, not punish the guilty. I understand there some who take pride in a good ol' fashioned beatdown, but to me wanting and taking pride in fighting is sheer stupidity and is an embarassment to the human race, lol.



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Instructor

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PostSubject: Re: My Thoughts on Stopping Violent Crime   Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:11 am

Your approach sounds very practical to me 204.

For what it's worth I don't think anybody here would be proud of a beating up another person. I certainly don't teach that to my students. The goal should be conflict resolution.
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E0N (Inactive)

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PostSubject: Re: My Thoughts on Stopping Violent Crime   Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:14 am

I think if you consider it carefully you'll conclude that people who intervene in emergency/dangerous situations professionally make it a habit to prioritize their own survival.

That doesn't mean not to intervene or that maybe someday you might be in some actual situation where your priorities change because of some factors none of us is going to really capture in some random text on the internet.

But I've never heard anyone like a cop, fireman, soldier, EMT, etc ever sit back beforehand in the planning phase or the "what would you do if?" context say "well, run in immediately without regard for my own survival!"

There's a whole "we're professional cowards" speech I used to give people at work.

Eh... anyways.

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E0N (Inactive)

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PostSubject: Re: My Thoughts on Stopping Violent Crime   Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:17 am

Actually... exclude drunk talk. People do sometimes reach a point where they say stuff like "I would die for you, man! IN A HEARTBEAT! Bullets flying everywhere and I'd just be like, no no, man... SHOOT ME SHOOT ME..."

It's not rational discussion, however.

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PostSubject: Re: My Thoughts on Stopping Violent Crime   Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:06 pm

Very good point, Eon. It really puts things into perspective.

You make some very valuable points as well, Crossfire. It's very true that you really don't know how you're going to handle a situation until it happens. There are many factors involved that make it nearly impossible to have a situation completely mapped out before it happens.

When situations happen you find yourself going off "script" often. I've done things in the moment that I would ordinarily never do.

What I want to address here is this:

Quote :
when the discussion leans toward not acting due to fear of making a mistake it irritates me

I want to make sure that it is understood that I am not promoting inaction or saying that if you try to break up a fight you will go to jail. What I see all over this forum and this community is a lot of uninformed talk. There are tons of comments about "I would do this" or "I would do that" and some of them are pretty blatantly irresponsible. I don't think anyone here will argue that (except maybe the ones making those comments). This, to me, is the most dangerous thing for anyone thinking of becoming an RLSH. This gung-ho "Yea, I'd lay someone out if I saw them beating on someone" attitude is irresponsible and dangerous. This is basically just people looking to go out, play Batman and beat up some bad guys.

You, Crossfire, are well trained. I've been around long enough and I'm familiar with you're background. You are trained and experienced in handling some pretty insane situations. I know you are going to be able to handle yourself in these situations. I can't say the same for some others in the community, and that includes Phoenix Jones. The scariest part of it for me is the fact that these untrained individuals are actually going out LOOKING FOR this stuff. They don't have a firm understanding of what they can do legally (and sometimes physically) and they don't have the training to properly assess and diffuse a situation.

Am I saying turn your back to it and ignore it? no, but for GOD'S sake please make the effort to become trained in how to handle these situations. Everyone talks about first aid training and martial arts training, but this, especially if you are a crime fighter, is just as important.
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Gauge



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PostSubject: Re: My Thoughts on Stopping Violent Crime   Wed May 09, 2012 8:39 pm

Life changes will also affect ones willingness to charge into danger. You might think quite differently as a single man in his twenties compared to a thirty year old married man whose first child just turned a month old. You must constantly analyze many factors and be brutally honest regarding your willingness to accept different levels of risk. The hardcore, 24 year old street crime fighter who leaps into action against armed assailants every night may become the 40 year old father of three who does homeless handouts on the weekends, if he doesn't have snack duty at the t-ball game.
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Urban Avenger

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PostSubject: Re: My Thoughts on Stopping Violent Crime   Wed May 09, 2012 9:54 pm

I have to disagree with you Rattler. sometimes, the police simply can't arrive on time. sometimes intervention is absolutely necessary to save a life. I speak from experience on this.

oh, and sometimes, the cops never show up.

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PostSubject: Re: My Thoughts on Stopping Violent Crime   Thu May 10, 2012 2:19 am

...a bit of related humour to help lighten the mood of the conversation:

[youtube][You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] [/youtube] Wink


*hopes this works*


Last edited by hiddensparrow on Thu May 10, 2012 2:20 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : video link didn't work. *tries again*)
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PostSubject: Re: My Thoughts on Stopping Violent Crime   Fri May 25, 2012 6:40 pm

Crossfire the Crusader wrote:
I'd rather be the person who does something and makes a mistake than be the person who closes the window while Kitty Genovese is murdered in the street!

That story has been highly fictionalized. Most people didn't see or hear anything.

On to the issue-

Now, OBVIOUSLY calling the cops should be the first step. And OBVIOUSLY you should think first before getting involved in a tense situation. You don't say 'Get involved', or 'Allow the Police to Handle it'. Every situation like this is completely unique, and should be treated as such. I'm no crime fighter. I'm the guy who gives bagged lunches and toiletries to homeless people. Still, I'd like to think that if I was ever in that situation, I'd call the cops, then figure out what the best course of action is. Sometimes getting involved will save a life. Other times, its another person dead without a witness to ID the killer.
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Crossfire the Crusader

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PostSubject: Re: My Thoughts on Stopping Violent Crime   Sat May 26, 2012 3:38 am

Most people didnt see or hear anything BUT some people DID hear, some people DID see, and NOBODY intervened...I researched the case very thoroughly for the discussion Amazonia and I had on SUPERHERO ACADEMY last year on Kitty Geneovese Day.

The point is that there are times that its necessary to do something - ANYTHING - rather than do nothing BECAUSE the consequences of inaction are serious and can cost innocent lives.

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Who are you? I've never heard of you nor have I been given reason to take you seriously, I'm sure lots of people share my opinion on this matter. Which is why you got your initial response, if you had made an introduction thread or at least made of point of saying who you are you probably would've been received better. (Sleepless)


Sometimes you cant win by fighting the negative, but you can turn the tide by strengthening the positive


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PostSubject: Re: My Thoughts on Stopping Violent Crime   Mon May 28, 2012 6:24 pm

Calling 911 isn't useless! Certainly, stepping into a hostile situation can save lives, but the number of people assisted that way are way, vastly shadowed by those rescued by first response. And what would happen if the aggressor gets the best of you along with the person you're trying to help? You'd be screwed, that's what. Rather than pausing a quick few seconds to give an operator a location and run-down of the situation, the whole lot of you would be bleeding in the street without anyone knowing what's going on.

Repeat: 911 is your friend~


Now, what I do in those situations varies. I was at a party once when someone was overdosing and I was the only one there with even a rudimentary idea of what to do. While I was holding her head up and helping her, uh, vacate, nobody called 911 because they just assumed someone else did.

ಠ_ಠ

But for the most part, 911 and a hands free device. Personal alarms get bad guys to scatter because most criminals don't want to attract attention, and glowsticks, flares, or those flashing indicators for bicyclists let police or ambulance find you.
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PostSubject: Re: My Thoughts on Stopping Violent Crime   Mon May 28, 2012 11:08 pm

YAH!
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PostSubject: Re: My Thoughts on Stopping Violent Crime   Wed May 30, 2012 10:39 am

Sometimes all I can do while calling the cops is say for example "------- school playground guy throwing stones at kids" and put the phone back in my pocket while rushing to the scene then give them my statement after they guy has been dealt with
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PostSubject: Re: My Thoughts on Stopping Violent Crime   Wed May 30, 2012 1:35 pm

That's a good tactic too. They get pissed if you hang up before anyone gets there but what are they gonna do, ground you?
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PostSubject: Re: My Thoughts on Stopping Violent Crime   Wed May 30, 2012 7:58 pm

Problem is, people have this idea in their heads about stepping in and being a hero. Sometimes, the hero isn't even seen. They just call the authorities and let them do their jobs. And If you insist on punching a person, at least try to catch them.
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PostSubject: Re: My Thoughts on Stopping Violent Crime   Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:36 am

E0N wrote:
Patroling in a car is something almost nobody ever considers doing.

I'm not sure why, except that it doesn't seem very superhero-ey, maybe.

It has advantages.



I know right? Whenever I Patrol, I do so in a van. If I get a hunch about a certain area, I stop and observe the surroundings in more detail on foot, or I get my bicycle out of the back of the van (Patroling on a bicycle is also a good idea that, sadly, doesn't seem very superheroic, haha).

To me, patroling in a van seems to be the most practical mode of transportation. This way you have room for other gear such as a well stocked First Aid Kit, a smaller, more versatile mode of transportation, (For me it's a bicycle, but a skate board, scooter, or anything along those lines could work as well). Other ideas for more mission-specific activities could include rapelling gear, Military ECW's, or MRE's as well as some essential camping gear.

I suppose it just depends on the needs of the individual and how much preparation or practicality they feel is necesary. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: My Thoughts on Stopping Violent Crime   Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:09 pm

If I were part of a group I'd definitely drive around, no question. It's more convenient and leagues safer. As currently I'm on my ol' lonesome, more often than not I make the rounds on my bicycle. It doesn't really hurt my image any, since I'm about as physically un-heroic as one can get, haha. But as is, it's easier to pay attention, more economic, and better for the environment to do it this way.

Cyph3r wrote:
Problem is, people have this idea in their heads about stepping in and being a hero. Sometimes, the hero isn't even seen. They just call the authorities and let them do their jobs. And If you insist on punching a person, at least try to catch them.

You're very, very correct. It's a power thing. The scary thing is that there's hundreds of George Zimmerman-types who are more than happy to step up and be seen as a big man.

Calling the authorities is always best but I think the point of this thread is whether or not to physically intervene if someone's in immediate danger.
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PostSubject: Re: My Thoughts on Stopping Violent Crime   Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:28 pm

I have no desire to get into fights with anyone. I want to train people to defend themselves.

I would much rather prevent crime before it happens, and never personally interact with criminals at all.
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PostSubject: Re: My Thoughts on Stopping Violent Crime   Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:19 am

Recently a situation like the one discussed here happened to me. I accompanied a friend and his girlfriend to her home, when three guys stopped my friend to complain something. Suddenly one of them knocked out the young man with a punch, while the others were preparing to kick him. Everything happened so fast that there was no time to call the police. I thought not. I place between my friend knocked down and the three guys, and prepared have a rough time. Fortunately, many young people, including a young girl friend of mine, intervened and gave me the chance to take my friends away from there. Then I got time to call the police, but the offenders had already run off.

In this particular case I thought not. I've known too many cases where several individuals attack a single opponent and kick him down to death. I could not let that happen. I stood in the middle, aware that might receive a beating, but I could not unprotect my friend. I was lucky and went out of the situation unhurt.

I think it depends on the situation, in this case three unarmed men and a good friend of mine. If I do the same for a stranger attacked by thugs armed with AK-47? I highly doubt it ... I would call the cops, but not go into certain death.

By the way, I appreciate a lot more to the girl friend of mine who intervened. I hugged her and bring her candy and drinks. (non alcoholic). For me, it's a Real Life Super Heroine.
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