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Hazmat

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PostSubject: Re: RLSH physical fitness test   Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:42 am

Crossfire the Crusader wrote:

But dont think for a minute that just because someone is fat that they are a pushover...

I wish I would have just said it thatway. LOL


Last edited by Hazmat on Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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Vulpo

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PostSubject: Re: RLSH physical fitness test   Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:02 am

Do any of these tests involve sparring while being outnumbered?
I think that would be the most realistic way to deal with it. In real fights, you're always outnumbered or at a disadvantage in some way.
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Crossfire the Crusader

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PostSubject: Re: RLSH physical fitness test   Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:20 am

I would assume that physical fitness and combat efficiency are two different issues.

In assessing a person's fitness level you would be checking strength, dexterity, etc.

Combat skills would be another test altogether.

I think whats been suggested would definately improve a persons combat skills, but theres no need to fight an army of nazi frogmen to prove you are in shape.

Folks have a tendency to overthing thinks sometimes...this is just ONE step in a long journey...worry about the next step when you reach it.

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Who are you? I've never heard of you nor have I been given reason to take you seriously, I'm sure lots of people share my opinion on this matter. Which is why you got your initial response, if you had made an introduction thread or at least made of point of saying who you are you probably would've been received better. (Sleepless)


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Gauge



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PostSubject: Re: RLSH physical fitness test   Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:13 am

I'm not saying that overweight people can't stop crime, but do you think a six foot, 350 lb man is going to chase down a 5'10" 165 lb purse snatcher? Fat or not, the point is to know your limitations, and work within them while you work on expanding them. I know many people who are very healthy, and would possibly succeed very well at a physical contest, but I wouldn't want them to patrol with me for other reasons.

Just because one is overweight, doesn't mean you can't excell physically. The brief description of Fat Tony didn't make him sound ideal for a crime patrol. Tough as nails isn't enough. You can't stand your ground against a bullet.
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E0N (Inactive)

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PostSubject: Re: RLSH physical fitness test   Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:54 am

What I'm thinking with this is to promote the adoption and acceptance of a minimal level of fitness standards for certain people -- at a bare minimum hopefully one small team. Nobody would be turned away for not meeting the standards, but... not really sure yet, but encouraged to make "continual progress" toward them. And depending on the situation in some cases "required"... just in in the sense that if they don't, then they won't be taken along to do X, Y, or Z, for their own safety and stuff.

Sonic Eagle wrote:
...for pushups for me right now is 45 in 51 sec tested my self just now Ill have to test the sit ups and mial run later and no I am not trying to brag just thout if we culld all see what we can do now we culd averg it out just a thought.

Two things about that -- one is to make sure you're doing pushups with proper form, which makes them much harder. Way back when I joined the army I did 50 pushups for a doctor to convince him to give me a physical waver for something. It worked, but then once I was in I realized that basically not a single one of those pushups would have counted on a real PT test.

The average thing you mention is a good point. If you have team standards in place, then tracking the team average in meeting them is sometimes a good way to motivate people to improve, because people at the lower end, even if they're meeting the standard, tend to feel like they're dragging down the averages. It works for squads, anyway.

Double Helix wrote:
Do any of these tests involve sparring while being outnumbered?
I think that would be the most realistic way to deal with it. In real fights, you're always outnumbered or at a disadvantage in some way.

I still can't even think of a fair basic fighting test, other than one that measures endurance and willingness not to quit. To keep it objective the best I can think of is something like "participate in ten sparring sessions of six minutes each while making a continuous physical effort to dominate your opponent according to (insert safety rules here)."

You almost might as well just do that as timed sets on a bag with resting being a disqualifier, though.

Combatives level one does a simple punch drill where a guy stands still throwing punches at you while you move in and "achieve the clench" on him, which is basically the execution of a single technique. You could measure one technique fairly, but how far does that go...? I don't know.

Crossfire the Crusader wrote:
I would assume that physical fitness and combat efficiency are two different issues.

People might have different opinions, but here's mine. There's no such thing as "generic" physical fitness. Fitness is like sanity... it should be measured relative to whether the person is functional according to whatever standards you have for functional.

All things being equal my experience is that someone who weighs more than me and has an equal or greater amount of fighting skill will kick my ass as long as it's a fair fight without weapons or the opportunity to run away. Grappling with people who outweigh you is really hard.

Also I like the firefighter standards... that's kinda similar to what I'm thinking with this and the standards appear reachable for average people who genuinely want to reach them.

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E0N (Inactive)

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PostSubject: Re: RLSH physical fitness test   Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:57 am

Oh... having said that about functional, the standards I'mn talking about are pretty generic. It's a compromise between realism and the ability to conveniently and fairly test people.

What I've seen with compromises like that is you basically have to keep standards low to make them fair to multiple people.

Still, even if you only had a standard like "You must do 10 pushups to qualify"... it changes things a little.

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E0N (Inactive)

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PostSubject: Re: RLSH physical fitness test   Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:02 pm

Flora V. Arbor wrote:
Take a "fat" person.

Make it work out for three years or more but not less.

You WILL end up with a SERIOUS strength-and-stamina person-of-SQUEEZBILITY
because
the body NEEDS CALORIES
to build.

...it...

Razz

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DRock

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PostSubject: Re: RLSH physical fitness test   Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:23 pm

I'm a humanitarian. But I would be willing to work towards crimefighter standards, because at some point I may have to work with crimefighters and I wouldn't want to slow them down.

As far as male/female standards go... as the risk of sounding sexist there is a reason why there are different physical requirements for men and women. Can't deny that both genders are built differently. That has to be put into account. Same for age.
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Polarman

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PostSubject: Re: RLSH physical fitness test   Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:48 pm

Ive been in fights with overweight people I can say that they are not pushovers they can still be taken down if you can make the dummy's eyes light up

Watch 3 Ninjas
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Gauge



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PostSubject: Re: RLSH physical fitness test   Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:20 pm

Professor Tanaka is one of the tanks who can take a lot of punishment and give it back twice as hard, AND had physical prowess beyond just being tough. He was trained in jiujitsu and was Danzan Ryu black belt. He had stamina and agility to go with his badass fighting skills. He was in his 60's when he did 3 Ninjas I think.

Also, he's not Japanese. He is Hawaiian, and his birth name is Charlie Kalani.
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Sleepless



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PostSubject: Re: RLSH physical fitness test   Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:21 pm

On different requirements due to gender/age, if you can't perform to the standard then you can't, you can't make different standards for people who can't keep up. To have lower standards due to gender/age, would defeat the purpose.
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E0N (Inactive)

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PostSubject: Re: RLSH physical fitness test   Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:31 pm

Standards based objectively on what people do out there would be an entirely different thing, though...

5-10 mile walk with breaks... carry a loaded backpack... sprint 100 meters... grapple for 2 minutes (maybe)...

I'm not sure I even want to tackle that... partially because I'm not even convinced yet that what people are doing out there is what should be done. I'm still figuring things out myself.

I do lean toward one baseline standard regardless of age or gender, though, however low it might need to be.

And how to implement something like this besides among a small group of guys... beats me. Razz

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Midnite Detective

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PostSubject: Re: RLSH physical fitness test   Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:25 am

Yep goddamn fatties. Total pushovers. Wink
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E0N (Inactive)

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PostSubject: Re: RLSH physical fitness test   Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:03 am

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JohnDoe




PostSubject: Re: RLSH physical fitness test   Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:20 am

Mistakes made, lessons learned. Don't bring a skinny bully to a fat fight.
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Zimmer

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PostSubject: Re: RLSH physical fitness test   Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:56 am

Fat people still have throats to crush and teeth to punch and noses to break. Eyes can be gouged and knees can be kicked.
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Crossfire the Crusader

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PostSubject: Re: RLSH physical fitness test   Thu Sep 01, 2011 4:36 am

funny thing about that...so do skinny people

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Who are you? I've never heard of you nor have I been given reason to take you seriously, I'm sure lots of people share my opinion on this matter. Which is why you got your initial response, if you had made an introduction thread or at least made of point of saying who you are you probably would've been received better. (Sleepless)


Sometimes you cant win by fighting the negative, but you can turn the tide by strengthening the positive


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Midnite Detective

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PostSubject: Re: RLSH physical fitness test   Thu Sep 01, 2011 4:39 am

Hazmat wrote:
And where I live they defunded the hospital for the mentally ill. It sounds impossible but they literally just dumped hundreds of people out on the street.

This is more common than you think my man. They have no place to put them then they will discharge them.
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Midnite Detective

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PostSubject: Re: RLSH physical fitness test   Thu Sep 01, 2011 4:45 am

Yeah yeah you guys.
So can the Isz's hiding under my bed.

I'm in favor of this sort of thing for gauging the fitness of people you will be depending on.
Agreeing with Guage and the others, it's obvious with that kind of trust, relying on each other in situations out in the real world, you have got to be honest and assess what each person needs work on to imiprove not only themselves but the team.

You have to have some sort of standard, a bar, to actually compare physical fitness improvements with. Find that standard, find out where you and your teammates may need to improve physically and then help each other attain that level of fitness.
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Midnite Detective

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PostSubject: Re: RLSH physical fitness test   Thu Sep 01, 2011 4:47 am

This also neatly ties in with the PJ first aid thread, assessing what needs to be improved, physical fitness, stamina, emergency and basic skills, etc and doing it.

Ta da.
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White Baron

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PostSubject: So, this is the goal?   Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:01 pm

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Last edited by White Baron on Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Gauge



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PostSubject: Re: RLSH physical fitness test   Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:59 pm

Umm...no. Every move has a counter move. Once this guy started a technique, his opponent made no move to counter him. This is a performance, not a true show of skill relative to an actual opponent. In a street fight he wouldn't be applying half of the moves he shows on this video. He has great physical skill, yes, but I wouldn't try anything so tricky on patrol. Keep it simple.
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E0N (Inactive)

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PostSubject: Re: RLSH physical fitness test   Thu Sep 01, 2011 2:38 pm

So... any opinions on whether the following is fair, reasonable, and practical?


A minimal baseline test proposal:

CRIME PREVENTION PATROL PHYSICAL FITNESS CERTIFICATION

Stun Gun familiarization (receive one 2-second jolt from a stun gun)
20 push-ups in two minutes
30 sit-ups in two minutes
1-mile run in 9 minutes or less
3-minute continuous punching test (stopping to rest results in disqualification)


REQUIREMENTS TO ADMINISTER THE TEST
A minimum of three people – a tester, a scorer, and the person being tested
Approximately level ground for conducting the events
An approximately level 1-mile running course (soft surface track optimal)
A heavy punching bag
A commercially manufactured stun gun
A stopwatch
Hand wraps, running shoes, and suitable athletic attire for each person being tested


TEST INSTRUCTIONS
The tester reads the following to the person(s) being tested:

“You are about to take the Crime Prevention Patrol Physical Fitness Certification test. This test is designed to measure your physical preparedness for basic crime prevention patrols. If you are unable to pass this test without evidence of a legitimate medical condition you will not be permitted to participate in team crime prevention patrols and, for your own safety, are strongly discouraged from conducting such activities on your own.”

“The test consists of five events with a recovery period of ten minutes between each event allowed, but not mandatory. The first event is the STUN GUN FAMILIARIZATION.”


STUN GUN FAMILIARIZATION
“The stun gun familiarization event provides a demonstration of the effects of a commercially purchased stun gun and acquaints you with the results of its use. You will receive one 2-second jolt to the meaty portion of one of your outer thighs.”

(TEN MINUTE BREAK)

PUSH-UP INSTRUCTIONS
"The push-up event measures the endurance of the chest, shoulder, and triceps muscles. On the command “get set,” assume the push-up starting position, also known as the “plank position,” by placing your hands where they are comfortable for you. Your feet may be together or up to 12 inches apart. When viewed from the side, your body should form a generally straight line from your shoulders to your ankles. On the command “go,” begin the push-up by bending your elbows and lowering your entire body as a single unit until your upper arms are at least parallel to the ground. Then, return to the starting position by raising your entire body until your arms are fully extended. Your body must remain rigid in a generally straight line and move as a unit while performing each repetition.

At the end of each repetition, the scorer will state the number of repetitions you have completed correctly. If you fail to keep your body generally straight, to lower your whole body until your upper arms are at least parallel to the ground, or to extend your arms completely, that repetition will not count, and the scorer will repeat the number of the last correctly performed repetition.

An altered, push-up starting position is the only authorized rest position. That is, you may sag in the middle or flex your back. When flexing your back, you may bend your knees, but not to such an extent that you are supporting most of your body weight with your legs. If this occurs, your performance will be terminated. You must return to, and pause in, the correct starting position before continuing.

If you rest on the ground or raise either hand or foot from the ground, your performance will be terminated. You may reposition your hands and/or feet during the event as long as they remain in contact with the ground at all times. You will have two minutes in which to do at least 20 push-ups."

(TEN MINUTE BREAK)

SIT-UP INSTRUCTIONS
"The sit-up event measures the endurance of the abdominal and hip-flexor muscles. On the command ‘get set,’ assume the starting position by lying on your back with your knees bent at a 90- degree angle. Your feet may be together or up to 12 inches apart. Another person will hold your ankles. The heel is the only part of your foot that must stay in contact with the ground. Your fingers must be interlocked behind your head and the backs of your hands must touch the ground. Your arms and elbows need not touch the ground. On the command ‘go,’ begin raising your upper body forward to, or beyond, the vertical position. The vertical position means that the base of your neck is above the base of your spine. After you have reached or surpassed the vertical position, lower your body until the bottom of your shoulder blades touch the ground. Your head, hands, arms, or elbows do not have to touch the ground.

At the end of each repetition, the scorer will state the number of sit-ups you have correctly completed. A repetition will not count if you fail to reach the vertical position, fail to keep your fingers interlocked behind your head, arch or bow your back and raise your buttocks off the ground to raise your upper body, or let your knees exceed a 90-degree angle. If a repetition does not count, the scorer will repeat the number of your last correctly performed sit-up. The up position is the only authorized rest position. If you stop and rest in the down (starting) position, the event will be terminated. As long as you make a continuous physical effort to sit up, the event will not be terminated. You may not use your hands or any other means to pull or push yourself up to the up (resting) position or to hold yourself in the rest position. If you do so, your performance in the event will be terminated. You will have two minutes to perform at least 30 sit-ups."

(TEN MINUTE BREAK)

1-MILE RUN INSTRUCTIONS
"The 1-mile run event is used to assess your aerobic fitness and your leg muscles endurance. You must complete the run without any physical help. At the start, you will position yourself behind the starting line. On the command ‘go,’ the clock will start. You will begin running at your own pace. To run the required 1-mile, you must complete (describe the number of laps, start and finish points, and course layout). You are being tested on your ability to complete the 1-mile course in nine minutes or less. Although walking is allowed, it is strongly discouraged. If you are physically helped in any way (for example, pulled, pushed, picked up, and/or carried) or leave the designated running course for any reason, you will be disqualified."

(TEN MINUTE BREAK)

3-MINUTE PUNCHING TEST INSTRUCTIONS
“The 3-minute punching test event measures the endurance of your shoulder, forearm, and triceps muscles. On the command ‘go’ you will begin continuously punching the heavy bag alternating with your right and left arms. You are not to stop until told to do so once the entire 3-minutes have elapsed. If you pause to rest during the punching test your performance in this event will be terminated. You are required to wrap your hands during this event and allowed to wear gloves if you wish.”


I know sit-ups are considered not so good. They keep getting used, though, because they're more objective to measure than crunches.

(liberal swiping from army PT test instructions here, by the way... they're public domain since our taxes paid for their development...

...also this is the same test for everybody, regardless of gender or age, but not to be administered to anyone with a medical condition that would make it unsafe for them...)

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Midnite Detective

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PostSubject: Re: RLSH physical fitness test   Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:31 pm

Those seem more than fair.
I'd still fail the damn run course though. I'm a brickhouse and my stupid ankle isnt helping. I can't run for a damn.

I'm a decent sprinter for a few yards. Like dwarves I'm very dangerous over short distances. Surprised
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Gauge



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PostSubject: Re: RLSH physical fitness test   Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:34 pm

For rlsh patrols I think this is pretty good. I'd also recommend a 200 meter sprint test.
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