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 Another post got me to thinking.

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Liberator

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PostSubject: Re: Another post got me to thinking.   Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:00 pm

lol, Thanks Max.
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E0N (Inactive)

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PostSubject: Re: Another post got me to thinking.   Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:59 pm

Sigh.

Leviathan wrote:
1. Scenario 1: The Lopper!
A man walking down the street in head to toe body armour with a four foot sword, going hari kari on any unwitting passer-by.
He's just killed three people in a Dunkin Donuts (One police officer, counter clerk and a mother of two)
He's stepping out just as you're coming up to the store on a lone patrol. GO!

2. Scenario 2: Killdozer!
A disgruntled muffler shop owner who's had his shop run out of business decides to modify a Komatsu bulldozer with interleaved concrete and steel plates a foot thick, 3 - 50 cal machine guns, full 360 video cameras with lexan lens protection, air conditioning and oxygen supply. He's started his nasty work by driving down Main Street (anytown, USA) he's plowed a judges house, the town city hall, assayers office, smashed 6 cars. Police have responded, firing hundreds of rounds into the cabin without making a dent. You've just turned on the TV and see this going on. GO!

3. Scenario 3: Crack Den.
On patrol, you come across a crack den. You collect info to give to the local police so they can get swat involved. Two very large guys (ala Michael Clarke Duncan) see you doing this, and go right for you. Both armed with glock 9mm, they start shooting at you and running after you. Apparently you've run into more than just a crack den, but a possible operation that these guys were meant to guard. GO!

1. Probably get killed because I didn't expect an armored swordsman to step out of the donut shop at that particular moment... if not, I've actually given a lot of thought to how you would disable someone wearing armor. In my opinion the first thing you want to do if you're close is blind them, probably by twisting their helmet around or something. If I didn't literally bump into the guy, though, then back off and put something between him and me as a start... like a car or something.

2. I don't actually watch TV, but in this case I suppose I'd just watch the report. What are you going to do that the small army of cops aren't? If you decided to respond, despite that, typically the way poorly equiped single guys take out tanks is to drop a massive firebomb on it (like one made from a huge wine or honey jug). If you don't happen to have a massive firebomb in your car, probably by the time you put one together the situation would be resolved.

3. You've assumed a lot of things I wouldn't do here and assumed that if I did do them I'd do them stupidly (i.e. openly taking notes in front of a crack house... even parking or standing still in front of the place would be dumb). Anyway, take it down to two guys shooting at me at the same time they run after me -- haul ass and assume the fact they haven't slowed to a walk to keep their aim steady means none of those bullets will actually hit me while I run as fast as I possibly can in the opposite direction.

Also I don't see how you'd know it was a crack den in the first place or why two guys at it having pistols suddenly makes it far far much more than a mere crack den.

Anyways. IMO you should think much simpler for things like this and actually practice reacting physically.

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Crossfire the Crusader

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PostSubject: Re: Another post got me to thinking.   Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:29 pm

In a medical emergency the FIRST step is to call for help if at all possible. As a EMS first responder or general First Aid provider I have a responsibility to summon medical personnel (aka ambulance) to the scene before taking charge of the incident myself. This ensures that someone with better training and better equipment is enroute to take over for you and strengthens the possibility that the patient wil survive.

Using that logic the FIRST thing to do in ANY of these situations is to call for help. Call 911 and they can dispatch the police, EMS personnel, and even the National Guard if needed. THEN and ONLY THEN should you take further action.

All of these scenarios are extreme situations and if you face it like you really believe you are a character from a comic book then you will most likely be added to the list of victims. I dont care HOW highly trained you are in whatever form of martial arts, there are times that you are simply outclassed or outgunned.

Even the most skilled of surgeons has to call for a crash cart when things go wrong. It doesnt mean they are not skilled enough to handle things it simply means that the situation was more than they were prepared for and they require assistance. When that patient codes out on the table they call in the crash cart and additional medical personnel who do everything in their power to save the life of the patient.

Rushing into a life or death situation without calling for backup is a sure fire way to make things worse.

One man on foot taking out a tank is the stuff you see in movies...You are not going to take out the treads of a bulldozer with anything less than explosives...And seriously, if you have enough explosives on your person to destroy the treads on a homemade tank then WTF already!

The guy with the sword - perhaps if you have a suitable makeshift weapon like a steel baseball bat or something and the training to use it effectively you might be able to do something, but i you rush in there unarmed you are going to be hurt and hurt badly.

As for the crack den...I posted few months ago the signs to look for to ecognize a meth lab. There are similar signs for a crack den. (I am assuming the difference between the two is that one is a place that sells and the other is a place that manufactures it.)

For the two men to come after you I am going to assume that you are doing more than taking notes or snapping pictures. AND its definately going to have to be somewhere off the beaten path or they risk drawing way too much attention by just firing at someone outside the building. One thing about keeping things hidden is to not draw attention. Shooting at some random person outside the building will draw attention.

And the rule for what to do when being shot at is always the same run as fast as you can and get out of the line of fire.

A better way to handle the crack den would be to NOT be so obvious in your surveillance and get away with the info you can carry in your head before they notice you. THEN you can either collect info on occasional pass by patrols or simply share your suspicions with the police and let them handle it. You may be doing a great job collecting evidence at the scene but that evidence is not admissible in court and the police would have to completely re-do everything you've done already. Your statement and a few pictures (if you can get them) may be enough to launch an investigation.

If you actually become such a threat to their security that they rush out ans start shooting at you then you can be certain that they will bug out and the police will not have a chance to do much more than shake their heads and say "yes...this was a crack den...wonder where they went."

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Who are you? I've never heard of you nor have I been given reason to take you seriously, I'm sure lots of people share my opinion on this matter. Which is why you got your initial response, if you had made an introduction thread or at least made of point of saying who you are you probably would've been received better. (Sleepless)


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Cognito

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PostSubject: Re: Another post got me to thinking.   Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:59 pm

"1. Scenario 1: The Lopper!
A man walking down the street in head to toe body armour with a four foot sword, going hari kari on any unwitting passer-by. He's just killed three people in a Dunkin Donuts (One police officer, counter clerk and a mother of two) He's stepping out just as you're coming up to the store on a lone patrol. GO!"


Are we being "really real" here, or trying not to insult the swordsman/murderer?

Because I see this as a clear-cut case of "justifiable self-defense or defense of others", which is PRECISELY what my concealed carry permit is for.
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Moxie

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PostSubject: Re: Another post got me to thinking.   Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:01 pm

I'd cast Petrificus Totalus.




(we are discussing complete and utter fantasy, right?)
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Blue Alpha

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PostSubject: Re: Another post got me to thinking.   Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:14 pm

Leviathan wrote:
Right now, the RLSH movement is in its infancy. No real worries from the darkside other than the already existing street thugs and criminals. But at some point, there may be a RLSV that will come out as a balance from what we stand for.

I'm going to throw scenarios out there and I want them thought of logicaly. Handle them with your current knowledge of physics, martial arts, chemistry, biology and sheer brains.

1. Scenario 1: The Lopper!
A man walking down the street in head to toe body armour with a four foot sword, going hari kari on any unwitting passer-by.
He's just killed three people in a Dunkin Donuts (One police officer, counter clerk and a mother of two)
He's stepping out just as you're coming up to the store on a lone patrol. GO!

This is the hardest. I've always sworn never to kill someone, but I see 3 answers:
-If he sees me, trash talk and run, hoping to lure him away til the cops come.
-If he misses me and walks away from me, I can either grab a heavy object and brain him with it (probably killing him) or stungun him; or I can run into the donut shop and upon finding the dead cop I could take his gun and order the swordsman to stand down, shooting him if he doesn't.
-If I'm driving, Gauge has it. This guy's my new hood ornament.


2. Scenario 2: Killdozer!
A disgruntled muffler shop owner who's had his shop run out of business decides to modify a Komatsu bulldozer with interleaved concrete and steel plates a foot thick, 3 - 50 cal machine guns, full 360 video cameras with lexan lens protection, air conditioning and oxygen supply. He's started his nasty work by driving down Main Street (anytown, USA) he's plowed a judges house, the town city hall, assayers office, smashed 6 cars. Police have responded, firing hundreds of rounds into the cabin without making a dent. You've just turned on the TV and see this going on. GO!

I don't see anyway to help unless I happen to be at a construction site near the rampage. Seems to me like t-boning the killdozer with a heavy-duty bulldozer or likewise equipment at full throttle might break one of the concrete slabs, allowing the cops an oppurtunity and maybe breaking a tread. Also, a small explosive down the tailpipe might work, but I don't carry that`around.

3. Scenario 3: Crack Den.
On patrol, you come across a crack den. You collect info to give to the local police so they can get swat involved. Two very large guys (ala Michael Clarke Duncan) see you doing this, and go right for you. Both armed with glock 9mm, they start shooting at you and running after you. Apparently you've run into more than just a crack den, but a possible operation that these guys were meant to guard. GO!

Probably run if there's time, die if not. Of course, how can I tell this is a crack den at a glance? Is there a "Tweaker Tim's Discount Methamphetamines and Crack Cocaine Emporium" sign above it?

Good luck.

Thanks Rolling Eyes

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Crossfire the Crusader

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PostSubject: Re: Another post got me to thinking.   Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:38 pm

As for the running into the swordsman with the car...until you go into the donut shop you dont know that the man is anything more than a costumed character. You wont actually be IN your car at that point and will most likely be facing off against and armed and armored individual who has no problem killing someone.

Heres something to think about...

When I did alarm responses in Little Rock, one of the places I was responsible to check and respond to was the building that housed the offices of the DEA, FBI, and the Little Rock Police Drug Task Force. One night I recieved a call of a door alarm at the building. This was not uncommon so I didnt think much of it and prepared for another fifteen minutes of door shaking and alarm resetting to ensure that it was only someone who forgot their alarm code (happened all the time.)

As I arrived at the building I saw a beat up car parked in the space by the door. A man in a black jacket with long shaggy hair and a beard was gettng something out of the trunk of the car. As I pulled closer her pulled out an assault rifle...thats right a fricking assault rifle!

My first instinct was to ram him with the car. I had a strange individual who was heavilly armed at the site of an alarm where FBI/DEA/LRPD had their offices.

Then I noticed the small white letters on the upper left side of his chest...LRPD.

I stopped the car behind him and got out. I identified myself and asked for his information. It turns out that he was a detective with the LRPD and had grown out his hair and beard for an undercover assignment.

He had that jacket to wear when he was in the building to help identify him as part of the drug task force...but that was his only marking aside from his badge which he produced at my request.

I explained that an alarm had been triggered and that I was responding to it. I told him that since I was responsible for the building security that I would be doing a report and thats why I needed the information.

He apologized for not using the proper procedure to enter the building after hours and gave me his name and badge number.

Then we stood there for a few minutes and discussed what almost happened. He even told me that if he had rolled up on the same situation he would have probably rammed the person with the car.

Its the first thing you think about in a situation like that...BUT...you cant fully assess a situation from inside the car. I was lucky enough to see the LRPD on the jacket.

There's no way you could know the man with the sword had just committed a crime...Even if he was covered in blood you would have no way of knowing if the blood was real or if he was playing a part in a movie or something.

Also, driving onto the sidewalk to hit him can result in more innocents being injured...if your car can clear the curb to get on the sidewalk in the first place.

It sounds good at first and the car does give you the upper hand, but I just dont think hitting him with a car is a viable option.

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Who are you? I've never heard of you nor have I been given reason to take you seriously, I'm sure lots of people share my opinion on this matter. Which is why you got your initial response, if you had made an introduction thread or at least made of point of saying who you are you probably would've been received better. (Sleepless)


Sometimes you cant win by fighting the negative, but you can turn the tide by strengthening the positive


SUPERHERO ACADEMY ON BLOG TALK RADIO - returning soon - times TBA - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: Another post got me to thinking.   Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:14 pm

1. duck and do not get cut or seen if possible.
find weapon of oportunity that is BIG enough to distance you
like chairs but you are deciding to take him to you and keep him off of others at that point
- risk shift. If you can get a cloth over his head or obscure his vision
that's good.

BE LIKE WATER! DO NOT HOLD STILL!

I like the "hit-him-with-a-car" solution too - weapon of oportunity!
You'd be making a big risk-choice with that though

film if nothing else!

2. I like the black spray and the tail pipe plug for the dozer!

If the driver can't see, it's mind will change a bit.
Talking works well sometimes.

If I knew a cement mixer place and could authorize a head-on, i'd get the keys.

Seems trite but runing ahead and warning is not bad.


film if nothing else.


3. crack houses full of gun pointers will not be unraveled by a solo
or a poorly timed tiny team.

fake jonesing and GET out to report!!!!!!!
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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: Another post got me to thinking.   Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:23 pm

Purse-snatching and 7-11-robbing seem far more prevalent, yes?

Let's do a couple of those!


I saw, on "Most Shocking", two guys on a scooter snatch purses.
They thought that they were FAST and scooted by a man with a bicycle.

The man threw the bike at them and WASTED them!!!

"YAY", said the lady with the returned purse!


Another: a nice young woman in shift-style dress and basic high heels
saw TWO men try to car jack an old man.

SHE WAILED! and didn't even mess up her clothes!!!!!
(She is my role model!)
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PostSubject: Re: Another post got me to thinking.   Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:39 pm

I hope most of you never encounter someone with a sword. I think Cognito will be ok.
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PostSubject: Re: Another post got me to thinking.   Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:36 pm

I agree with you Nemesis, except that most rlsh don't patrol with firearms, and this scenario was based on patrolling. Someone also pointed out that the patrol is on foot, so I must rescind my own answer of ramming him with my car. But I hope a civilian would do that if it was feasible to do so.
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PostSubject: Re: Another post got me to thinking.   Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:41 pm

I haven't really heard of people reacting to an attacker by ramming them with their car, so I don't know if I would expect that from general pop.
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PostSubject: Re: Another post got me to thinking.   Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:54 am

Owning a firearm is of ZERO benefit unless it is on you and loaded at ALL times.

We don't wear costumes/masks, so we don't draw a distinction between "being awake" and "being on patrol"...I am (we are) ALWAYS geared-up in some way shape or form. "Patrol" for me means I am awake and dressed, because if I am dressed, then I am wearing at least some of my gear - including whichever sidearm is most appropriate at the time.

If you catch ME without a sidearm, then you need to get the hell out of my shower! Wink



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