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 Should we EVER use deadly force?

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Crossfire the Crusader

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PostSubject: Re: Should we EVER use deadly force?   Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:14 am

thanatos wrote:

if you go into any situation knowing that you can use lethal force then at some point you will.

no. we are not soldiers or police. we are people trying to help others and keep people alive and protect people. there is no reason for any of us to take a life for any reason.

any one of you ever taken a life? in combat as a memeber of the military or police?

it never leaves you and you always, ALWAYS wonder if ther could have been another way. no matter how many times it may have happened.

thinking along these lines is not part of what we do or what we are about no matter the circumstance. defending yourself is one thing. doing what you have to in order to stay alive is understandable, but thinking of justification before hand for lethal force is allowing yourself to take that step when you should be looking for other options.


I would add this thought.

Several years ago I was working as a nursing assistant and I actually had a patient die in my arms...There was nothing I could have done differently but it haunts me to this day...I can only imagine the torment I would feel if I allowed myself to push things too far and took a life when there was a way to avoid it.

Would I be willing to cross that line given the right circumstances? To protect my family...my friends...a perfect stranger? I know that given any other choice I would not, but if put in that situation I know I would...but it would have to be the only option to protect the lives of myself or someone else...and considering some of the situations Ive been in over the years (security, alarm responder, correctional officer, and crackhouse motel manager) and the fact that Ive never had need to use that level of force yet I dont expect to have to in the future.

Also remember this...that person you are facing off against is someones child, spouse, parent, or other loved one. Even the foulest dregs of society usually have someone that cares for them. When you go to court for using lethal force you will have to face them and the jury and say "there was no other way to stop them" and explain WHY you chose to take that life. It better be a real good reason and there better have been no other option. Justifiable homicide isnt a decision that comes often from the court system...and theres a good reason for that...because most of the time there is a better way.

Thats my $.02

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Rogue




PostSubject: Re: Should we EVER use deadly force?   Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:44 am

I agree with Shepherd from Firefly on this one:
Zoe: "Preacher, don't the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killing?
Shepherd Book: "Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps."

I don't think I could ever shoot to kill someone, even if my own life were in danger. That's just not me. I will, if absolutely no other option is possible, non-lethally shoot a person who is threatening to kill or hurt others. But I don't think I could sleep at night knowing I killed someone, even if it was to defend my own life. While I intend to learn how to fight, I would use that as a last resort too. I just don't like people getting hurt, no matter who they are or what they've done. Like Crossfire said, everyone is somebody's child, parent, sibling, or friend.

~Rogue
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Gauge



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PostSubject: Re: Should we EVER use deadly force?   Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:11 pm

If you are in a high stress situation and must fire at your attacker, do you trust your aim enough to hit his swinging arm or leg? Or would you go for the center of mass, the largest target on a human? Even a trick shooter would have some serious adrenaline pumping and it might throw their aim off, so a big target comes in handy.
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Red Dragon

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PostSubject: Re: Should we EVER use deadly force?   Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:05 pm

"Deadly/Lethal Force" should always be a last resort. Personally, if it reaches that point I feel like I've failed. The use of force to that degree leaves me with a cold disgusting feeling in my stomach, as does the thought of it.

You can justify it all you want with various scenarios here on this forum. It's not the same when it actually occurs, even when you're trained for it. That justification decays later on and you're left with questions. Did I do the right thing? Could I have done something different? Was there another way?

I'll leave you with this thought. Engaging combatants at 300m and beyond is one thing. There's nothing personal about it. It's a blurry object that you can't distinguish from an ivan-target except that it's shooting back at you.

Inside 50m, 10m, and in your face...it's unforgettable and horrifying when everything is done.
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Proteus

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PostSubject: Re: Should we EVER use deadly force?   Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:07 pm

I was raised in a gun owning family. I was taught at an early age how to properly handle - and respect - a firearm and what it is capable of. The proper training of a firearm should include - and I would hope this to be true of any weapon or martial art or survival training, which is the only reason I mention this here - is not just how to take a life, but how NOT to take a life (basically what that browncoat Rogue was talking about)

If you are going to go out on the street and enter situations being prepared to take a life to protect yourself, you need to make sure that you have the training and ability to ensure that that won't be necessary.
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Polarman

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PostSubject: Re: Should we EVER use deadly force?   Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:36 pm

I will observe the situation first before I go into it I have been known to talk younger people into putting down the rock kife or whatever they were holding by letting them know that its not worth the trouble that they would be getting into if they hurt the intended victim
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Urban Avenger

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PostSubject: Re: Should we EVER use deadly force?   Fri Jul 15, 2011 5:10 pm

I really don't know. You can build scenarios in your head all you want about various outcomes. I used to do that a lot.

should you ever use deadly force? no.

will you ever HAVE to? some day, maybe.

there's a difference between willing to and having to. push comes to shove, him or me. that question will be answered in a few short seconds when you no longer consciously control what you are doing. no one ever says, okay I am going to kill this guy now. its a primitive, flight or fight response, most people are not even aware they did it until it's too late.

well, at least that's me speaking from personal experience anyway.

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Rogue




PostSubject: Re: Should we EVER use deadly force?   Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:15 pm

Same here Proteus. When I took shooting sports as a kid lesson #1 was safety first. Lesson #2 was that guns are firearms -- you're the one who makes it a weapon. We were always taught that guns are very powerful and if you're going to use one, you always have to be in control of it. If you didn't know how to aim, you didn't need to have a gun. If I can't aim and hit a shoulder or leg instead of a vital organ, I'm not going to shoot.


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Urban Avenger

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PostSubject: Re: Should we EVER use deadly force?   Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:17 pm

Tell that to the police, they are trained to shoot for center of mass. 25 feet of ground can be covered in seconds, so someone with a knife can kill you before you have an extra second to shoot for a non vital area.

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E0N (Inactive)

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PostSubject: Re: Should we EVER use deadly force?   Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:31 pm

Using a gun against someone is "lethal force." If you aren't willing to kill a person, then you should never point a gun at them.

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Sonic Eagle

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PostSubject: Re: Should we EVER use deadly force?   Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:55 pm

E0N wrote:
Using a gun against someone is "lethal force." If you aren't willing to kill a person, then you should never point a gun at them.

this
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Proteus

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PostSubject: Re: Should we EVER use deadly force?   Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:29 pm

I brought up the firearm training as an example. what Eon says is true. Rule #1 for handling a firearm is you never point a gun at any living thing unless you are absolutely prepared to destroy it, and that is exactly why police are trained for center mass. If they need to fire their weapon, they need to be sure that they're gonna stop it.

I'm pretty much just saying learn and train as much as humanly possible if there's even a chance that kill or be killed may come in to what you're doing. Have a full understanding (meaning full training and practice, not just reading about it) of self-defense, disarming tactics, and who knows how many other disciplines out there to make sure that if actually ever comes to that, that you know you haven't overlooked any other possibility.
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Cognito

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PostSubject: Re: Should we EVER use deadly force?   Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:34 pm

"When seconds count, cops are only minutes away."

I can't carry a cop, so I carry a gun. I have the proper training and licensing, I have a family to protect, and it's my right. End of story.

But it just so happens that this mentality and capability are also ready to protect others if needed. In fact, I've defended strangers several more times than my own brood. I've never had to shoot it in defense, but a responsibly-wielded gun's mere *presence can be a calming or defining factor...

Now how can that *possibly be a bad thing?

As to "should we EVER?" - that depends entirely on the situation.
But PEOPLE should be ready and able to (to the extent legal in their area) regardless of the garb they wear.
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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: Should we EVER use deadly force?   Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:09 pm

1. Every person that ever snorted at my Martial Arts and said that they'd use a gun,
had a gun NO WHERE nearby.

2. One Martial Arts teacher told me that a person has to be willing
to kill or submit to rape. I think of that every time I see the movie where Bruce Lee's
"sister" kills herself with a piece of glass rather than submit to rape.

I, still, just mull this over. I have found myself unable to reachout and crush a trachea.

3. "Bad Lads Army" showed some great footage of men, holding terrible teens
in non-harming restraint techniques.

That really impressed me. That, and anyone who can talk a person down
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Crossfire the Crusader

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PostSubject: Re: Should we EVER use deadly force?   Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:00 am

Rogue wrote:
Same here Proteus. When I took shooting sports as a kid lesson #1 was safety first. Lesson #2 was that guns are firearms -- you're the one who makes it a weapon. We were always taught that guns are very powerful and if you're going to use one, you always have to be in control of it. If you didn't know how to aim, you didn't need to have a gun. If I can't aim and hit a shoulder or leg instead of a vital organ, I'm not going to shoot.


~Rogue

My last time at the range I shot 296 out of 300 and I wouldnt attempt a trick shot like those...Center mass is the only way if you have to shoot.

Furthermore, shooting center mass is also known as "Shooting to stop" as opposed to "Shooting to kill" and is definately a preferable option.

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Who are you? I've never heard of you nor have I been given reason to take you seriously, I'm sure lots of people share my opinion on this matter. Which is why you got your initial response, if you had made an introduction thread or at least made of point of saying who you are you probably would've been received better. (Sleepless)


Sometimes you cant win by fighting the negative, but you can turn the tide by strengthening the positive


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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: Should we EVER use deadly force?   Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:50 am

Guns - always - exist in a state where they can be removed by the bad guy TO the bad guy

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The Reverend

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PostSubject: Re: Should we EVER use deadly force?   Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:14 am

My daughter died in my hands . I watched her trying to breathe and knew she wouldn't survive . I kissed her tiny face and held her close to me . Looked in her eyes as she passed into the next world . Life is the true precious gift from our individual gods , if you aren't prepared to see death do chairty and avoid the streets . Its not a game , role playing or a hobby . Sorry if that sounds harsh but its truth
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Urban Avenger

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PostSubject: Re: Should we EVER use deadly force?   Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:27 am

Wow.

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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: Should we EVER use deadly force?   Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:27 am

Saint Rev, brutha, If a hug would help, I'd give it.

Make you have peace given to you by her spirit ALWAYS
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The Reverend

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PostSubject: Re: Should we EVER use deadly force?   Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:48 am

Thanks flora I never refuse a hug . I'm a cynical asshole and have been most of my life but I love life and I will protect it . And it still hurts but my son and I have a real angel ( lizzy ) watching out for us .
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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: Should we EVER use deadly force?   Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:22 am

...Love and Love, Rev!


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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: Should we EVER use deadly force?   Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:24 am

I'm thinking about the restraint techniques that we use on animals
and how we frame "deadly force"
and
how specifically we consider and administer "deadly force".
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Sleepless



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PostSubject: Re: Should we EVER use deadly force?   Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:07 am

The Reverend wrote:
My daughter died in my hands . I watched her trying to breathe and knew she wouldn't survive . I kissed her tiny face and held her close to me . Looked in her eyes as she passed into the next world . Life is the true precious gift from our individual gods , if you aren't prepared to see death do chairty and avoid the streets . Its not a game , role playing or a hobby . Sorry if that sounds harsh but its truth

Not harsh at all, if more people could understand, maybe they'd start taking better care of each other. I could never understand the loss of a child, but my brother went in my arms as well. My condolences.
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PostSubject: Re: Should we EVER use deadly force?   Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:35 pm

The Reverend wrote:
if you aren't prepared to see death do chairty and avoid the streets . Its not a game , role playing or a hobby . Sorry if that sounds harsh but its truth

Damn right. Thanks for making us hear it.
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Cognito

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PostSubject: Re: Should we EVER use deadly force?   Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:36 pm

If your entire concept of "gun ownership" is what a martial arts teacher "told you" and what you've seen in movies, excuse me if I don't take that as Gospel over my dozens of years in the field and 2 branches of service. :-\


Flora said:
"Guns - always - exist in a state where they can be removed by the bad guy TO the bad guy."


This is what "retention holsters" and "concealed carry" are all about.
If a bad guy can get MY gun from me, they deserve it.

CorneredCat.com is a great eye-opening resource for non-gun-owners who think they know something about guns.
Most of what I'm seeing here is dangerous misinformation....
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