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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:19 am

You trained martial arts for decades, and you don't know what I mean by full contact sparring? Really?
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Psyphon

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:05 am

Everyone has a different definition of it it seems. I promise if you came to fight with my sparring group there would be a different take on what full contact is than if I came to fight with your sparring group.
On top of that:
Kickboxing has it's own version of full contact,
MMA has it's own version of full contact,
San shou has it's own version of full contact,
Hell even TKD calls it's Olympic style sparring "full contact"
I could go on, but I think you get it. See the thing is they all have different things you can and can't do in their versions of full contact. Some are more restrictive, some are less, but they all have rules. The only common point between them is that in all of them you are allowed to hit "hard". They all wear different levels of padding to go along with their full contact as well.

I'll tell you how we do full contact when I train as an example:

In my group we only go full contact about 3-4 times a year.
A few of the guys have wives who are nurses and we always wait until they can all be there to supervise (they don't like that we even do it at all in the first place).
We do not allow any pads or protection, nor do we allow weapons, but we do allow terrain advantages.
There is no stylistic requirements, or round timers.
We have three ways to end the fight, all dependent on the reaction of the defender:

He can pass out or get knocked out
He can tap out or give up
Or he can die

We allow any and all techniques with the exclusion of eye gouging. With the exception of the eyes every single body part is a valid weapon and target. No restrictions are made for the amount of force used and it' at the discretion of the offender. We have done serious and sometimes permanent damage to each other on multiple occasions and a few of us have almost died.

I don't want anyone to think that this is in any way safe, or under control. I guess that this is your standard "don't try this at home" disclaimer time. Everyone I train with has been training for more than 20 years (some more than 30), and we keep trained medical staff on hand when we train this way. We only do it a few times a year because our bodies can't take doing it to many more times than that because it is VERY damaging. I've been to the hospital more than once due to this training style for life threatening issues, and so have most of the others.


So there you go. That's my version of full contact. I can tell you right now that there are only about 4-5 people that I know that I'll fight full contact with (at least our version). So if you asked me to fight "full contact" I might say no. But if you define what your version of full contact is then maybe it's a considerable option.

Could you please define what you mean by full contact Nemesis?
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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:45 am

Meanwhile, in the world that doesn't train in backyards...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_arts#Full-contact

Any actual full contact fighter will know what you mean immediately. Boxers, Kickboxers, Grapplers, MMA, etc. You may agree upon rules like no kicks if one's a boxer, or no elbows/knees if it's a kickboxer vs muay thai, but that's informal. Full contact is full force, with adequate safety precautions.

I can't imagine you've trained for decades and don't own safety gear. Mouthguard? Gloves? Headgear?

Giving yourself injuries isn't good training...getting VERY damaged sounds badass and all, but as someone with some experience and not someone who learns via youtube, it sounds like pretty piss poor training to me.
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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:09 pm

Arguing with Nemesis is like mud wrestling with a pig. It's tiring, you both get dirty, and the pig likes it.
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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:16 pm

All of these discussions could be happening without the consistent antagonism. And if they did they would be more like productive discussions.

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Midnite Detective

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:00 pm

Eon, you silly dreamer you.
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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:02 pm

E0N wrote:
All of these discussions could be happening without the consistent antagonism. And if they did they would be more like productive discussions.

echo
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Psyphon

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:50 pm

Nemesis wrote:
Meanwhile, in the world that doesn't train in backyards...
I'd be lying if I said we never trained in a back yard, but since we all, either are, or have been, martial arts instructors we have connections that make schools available to us (after hours of coarse) more often than not.

Nemesis wrote:
Any actual full contact fighter will know what you mean immediately. Boxers, Kickboxers, Grapplers, MMA, etc. You may agree upon rules like no kicks if one's a boxer, or no elbows/knees if it's a kickboxer vs muay thai, but that's informal. Full contact is full force, with adequate safety precautions.
.... and that's why I asked you to explain your own personal "informal rules agreement" so I can understand what you allow and don't. I'm seeking to understand your methods Nemesis. Just as a side note .... there was full contact before wikipedia exhisted, and our definition back then included the informal words, because it's not really "full" contact unless it's FULL.

Nemesis wrote:
I can't imagine you've trained for decades and don't own safety gear. Mouthguard? Gloves? Headgear?
I never said I didn't have those things. I used to compete in most of the martial arts that I've done and I have the pads that go along with just about every competition style. We just don't use ANY of them when we go "FULL contact"

Nemesis wrote:
Giving yourself injuries isn't good training...getting VERY damaged sounds badass and all, but as someone with some experience and not someone who learns via youtube, it sounds like pretty piss poor training to me.
It's not about being a bad-ass. It's about truly testing yourself. It's about seeing what you're really going to do when you're in a situation to fear death. And it's about conditioning (although we have much more direct and painful ways of doing that as well).

So anyhow ... what are your rules?
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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:19 pm

I guess you practice your gun defenses with a loaded weapon as well. I mean to truly test yourself and fear death properly...yawn. You're descriptions have all the trappings of a ki-wielding teenager...

My typical rules are standard MMA rules...no established martial art defines full contact as training without protective gear. The distinction is between full contact and point sparring. The adjective has little to do with the techniques involved, it's how you spar. What you allow in full contact varies, just as what you allow in point sparring would vary...not that I've ever had the experience, as it is essentially worthless training.
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Psyphon

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:41 pm

We practice gun defense with loaded air soft guns now. We used to use pellet guns back in the early 90's though (those hurt a lot more, I'm glad we switched).

If qi were real I'd be all over that stuff, but unfortunately all we have to work with in the really real world is body mechanics, physics, psychology, and knowledge (I also wish I was a teenager again, but knew what I know now Razz).

You've obviously no idea what it feels like to be close to dying. It changes the way you react to everything. I mean EVERYTHING. It's like when you try to tell someone who's never been hit in the face before that they need to block and keep their eyes forward, but then when the punch comes they flinch and tuck.

Actually almost all traditional Chinese arts consider full contact to be anything goes. They even used to have you sign a death waver before a full combat fight, and this was way before lawsuits. Back then honor and Confucian morality kept them from killing each other, not rules. I'd say that they are significantly more established than any martial art that is popular to compete in currently.
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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:12 am

Psyphon: Cool-headed and informative. I like your style.
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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:36 am

echo
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Dark Guardian

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:23 am

Psyphon wrote:

Or he can die


Seriously?????
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Psyphon

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:11 am

Well Dark Guardian it never came to that. None of us have ever actually been so stubborn that we didn't call it before it got to that point. The point is, we fought with full intention to go all out. There were no punches pulled, and no techniques (aside from the eye gouging I mentioned earlier) restricted. I've never fought anyone in a street situation as hard as I've fought those guys, and I'm not condoning or encouraging others to train in this way. But it is how we chose to train. We just wanted to get things as close to "real" as possible. You've even stressed the importance of that, and I was completely behind you when you did. We just took it a step further than most people do.
Don't get me wrong, I'm really a pacifist at heart. I hate fighting for real. I avoid it whenever possible and usually prefer to talk my way through situations. If it comes to blows I use absolute minimum force needed to be effective. I like training hard though. I enjoy body conditioning drills and super intense all out sparring.

LOL.
Something just dawned on me. It's kinda funny that I'm such an advocate of soft martial arts, yet here I am talking about things most people would consider "hard". Oh well, duality of Yin and Yang I guess.
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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:14 am

The advantage to training in back yards and empty lots as opposed to dojos and gyms is that you rarely have to fight for your life in a dojo or gym...terrain training gives you an advantage in real world fights that you wont have if you always train on uncluttered level surfaces.

The advantage to training in a dojo or a gym as opposed to a back yard or an empty lot is that you have the freedom to focus on learning the technique without the additional worry of injury from a hole, borken glass, or whatever and you know you can step without fear of a twisted ankle due to a hole, loose gravel or whatever.

That said I suppose its a good idea to incorporate BOTH locations into your training regiment and earn the best of both worlds.

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:00 am

Being able to train without becoming crippeled or dead is a big advantage as well.
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Psyphon

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:56 am

Well good then Dogman Smile. Training has been successful as I am neither dead nor crippled. hehehe
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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:35 pm

Psyphon wrote:
The point is, we fought with full intention to go all out. There were no punches pulled, and no techniques (aside from the eye gouging I mentioned earlier) restricted.

So...

Ripping off ears, crushing larynxes, biting off noses, trapping their arm and bending it the wrong way to break the elbow, the "Bane maneuver," bringing them to the ground and then jumping up and stomping on their face while they lay on asphalt, testicle crushing, grabbing a nearby club-like object and bashing their head in or impaling them with it, running off to your car and then driving back to run someone over, throwing them under a bus (literally), having a bunch of your friends show up to join the fight, pulling out a knife all of a sudden and stabbing them 36 times, curb-stomping after they're incapacitated, etc...

...all fair game?

That's some pretty hard core sparring.

Razz

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:39 pm

You forgot eye gouging and ripping out the throat (ala road house)

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:40 pm

He said eye-gouging was off limits.

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:42 pm

Oh, my bad. So what about neck breaking?

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:49 pm

Should be fine. Here's a quick "how to" video:

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:53 pm

Metal gear solid's way of breaking necks is way easier.

Just get behind the guy and press square ten times. Works like a charm.

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Wed Sep 21, 2011 6:40 pm

E0N wrote:
Ripping off ears
Would have been okay, but it was never done. Although there was an ear twist here and there.

E0N wrote:
crushing larynxes
I was in the hospital for 3 days from that. seperated the soft tissue and had air bubbles in my throat they said.

E0N wrote:
biting off noses
We all have scars from the biting, but no-one lost a nose.

E0N wrote:
trapping their arm and bending it the wrong way to break the elbow
Many hyper-extended elbows later .... yes. Never any permanent damage though thank goodness.

E0N wrote:
the "Bane maneuver,"
As in broken backs no. All together out of all the years we're at 2 instances of almost broken necks though. People were being stubborn those days.

E0N wrote:
bringing them to the ground and then jumping up and stomping on their face while they lay on asphalt
Never fought on asphalt. We did not break the fight though when one person was down and the other was up, unless the one who was down wasn't awake.

E0N wrote:
testicle crushing
Very frequently.

E0N wrote:
grabbing a nearby club-like object and bashing their head in or impaling them with it running off to your car and then driving back to run someone over, throwing them under a bus (literally)
No weapons allowed. Said that earlier.

E0N wrote:
having a bunch of your friends show up to join the fight
Was always one on one.

E0N wrote:
pulling out a knife all of a sudden and stabbing them 36 times
Weapons again.

E0N wrote:
curb-stomping after they're incapacitated
Not sure what to say about this one, but it never happened.

Anyhow, my personal full contact training methods with my martial arts buddies is hardly an appropriate topic beyond what we've discussed. I don't want some teenager to go trying this at home and getting themselves killed. In all honesty I should have stopped this line of the conversation right after I got done defining what I think of as full contact about 4-5 posts ago. So I'm going to move on at this point Smile.

The point of the matter, regardless of how you train, is that the more "real" you train, the better you will be in a real situation.

Let's get back into a discussion about the advantages of different martial arts styles.
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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:18 pm

Wow. I generally agree with most of your posts, Psyphon, but I must say your version of full contact doesn't seem to be a good fit for rlsh activities. When we go out on crime patrols, we voluntarily enter situations that could turn violent, and our very presence can escalate a situation to that level. We can't fight to kill in most situations, and the kind of brutality you describe as your training method would not endear us to the public. If you curb stomped a mugger until his face was a bloody pulp, his victim would probably testify against you in court. I would never try to judge you for methods I disagree with, but I did want to put my two cents in as it pertains to crime patrols.
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