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Urban Avenger

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:27 pm

Actually, I've known a few homeless whp's had laptops, taken them to cafes and used free wifi.

Theress your answer fishbulb.

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Gauge



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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:05 pm

Nemesis, part of any debate is respecting the opposition's right to their opinion, so I will not refute your personal opinion of Tai Chi, which I assume is based on your personal experiences with the form. I hope you can understand that my opinion is likewise based on my personal experience with Tai Chi, and it's proven effectiveness relative to other forms.

I do find it interesting that you and I have had such opposite experiences, but I suppose all points on the spectrum get represented eventually. I don't claim that Tai Chi is effective against all styles, just that I have seen it be effective much of the time.

Dismissing any martial art with such a long history is a huge tactical error IMHO. If it was truly crap, I doubt it'd still be around. Ineffective systems have a way of dying a shameful, ignominious death.
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Midnite Detective

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Sat Sep 17, 2011 7:52 am

Flora V. Arbor wrote:
Midnite Detective wrote:
Oh, and Flora.
I wouldn't chase you. If we needed to fight you'd come to me. I choose my battleground when I can. Smile If I had to go distance, I'd just have to pick up something big and throw it at you really, really, really hard.
If you suck at running after the little guys, you find all sorts of other ways to hit the guy from the distance. Razz
See? I'd not fight you!

Make love not war baby. cheers
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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:27 am

Actually, ineffective systems have a way of living on in shamefully huge profits by McDojos that serve as daycare for suburban parents...

As for Tai Chi, I do in fact have some experience with the form (beijing short, in my case) and aside from stress management, which isn't really interesting to me, I see no benefit. Certainly no martial application. Nor has anyone I trained with, including instructors, suggested it's usefulness in a self defense application.

Even if moves or whatever from Tai Chi were once (which even so I have yet to see verified evidence of this) used against a serious aggressor, it would be a huge stroke of luck, and there are far, far better ways of training self defense.

Teaching someone tai chi via youtube, and pointing them in the direction of armed criminals is beyond dangerous, it's suicidal. So I wasn't going to let this conversation sit.
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Gauge



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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:51 am

As far as "McDojos" go, don't blame the system, blame the teacher. A good system in the hands of a bad instructor is still good if the underlying philosophy is sound. But I do have to agree with you that some styles that perhaps SHOULD have died out have survived in the way you suggest. I also agree that learning from YouTube is far from ideal, and potentially fatal. There was an incident many years ago where a man defended himself using moves he learned from watching "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", but I'd say that kind of thing is extremely rare. Get competent training from a reputable teacher.

Your response to my post was both fair and respectful. I know you often find yourself at odds with other rlsh, but I thought it only fair to acknowledge our positive interactions, as well. Thanks for your perspective.
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Prof. Midnight

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:20 pm

OK, nevermind.
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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:40 pm

Gauge,

I agree that in most circumstances, such dangerous action is rare. That said, we are a community of people essentially looking for trouble, so the chance is significantly higher per person. Otherwise, I have nothing to add to your statement, I appreciate your stance in this.
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Gauge



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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:45 pm

Maybe I muddled that part, but I only meant that the instance where a person will successfully defend themselves by emulating a tv show is rare. Of course we will find ourselves in danger more often if we are actively searching for it.
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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:31 am

That was the only additional point I was trying to make, Gauge.
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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:55 am

Tai Chi wsa invented by monks who got tired of being beat up and robbed.

In order to memorize the moves they invented,
they wove them into a "dance" sort of thing.

A by-product of practicing that "dance" is/was the "meditation" factor that is the only
thing that most people associate with Tai Chi.

It was not intended for meditation.

Tai Chi is not designed to block the punch but to break the arm that punched
so that it won't punch again.

All Tai Chi moves are designed against attacks like a kata.
None of them are just moves for mellowness.

Because Tai Chi is all-defense and all-ruthless,
it's approach and it's finished product are like looking at a different side of martial art...all-defense is too different to be view through offensive-only prisms.

Because the brain makes trained reflexes from repeated patterns
and
because Tai Chi is just one "dance" it is the ONLY martial art that can be learned
from just learnign one thing and it really can be learned quickly.

JUST practicing those moves and nothing else is way more useful than dabbling in
any other martial art.

This is due to the singularness of the form.
There is only one thing to learn in Tai Chi - that one "dance".

Learning to be slippery and snappy is one of the only things that can be learned quickly in any martial art.

What made Bruce Lee so great is three things.

1. He watched his father do Tai Chi every day, from when he was little.
So, his brain was formed with ruthless defense moves

2. He got in real fights from a young age a LOT

3. He was a champion Cha Cha dancer - practicing moving bodies
from a whole other stand point and a more calm stand point.


Very Very few martial artists have this particular group of ingredients
and
very very few martial artists are as good as Bruce Lee.

I stand by my statements Re: Tai Chi for the above reasons
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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:28 am

"Homeless" is 24/7-about-to-get-hit.

It is an unsleeping saturation of danger.

It doesn't let up for hunger
or pleading
or beyond-sleepy.

It has no days off or close-of-shift time.

If you think that you have your back in a corner
so that people can't come up behind you or from the sides
with all your pointy parts sticking out
and that you can stay awake for a while,

you will because that is when the bugs will find you
and
you will have to learn how to defend yourself against tiny biters
while hoping not to get hit or, or, or, again

and then, you can get the flu and/or a cold
and sit there too
because the beds at the shelter are for women that
have their faces mashed more or have kids.

The slightly mashed with no children are not welcome.
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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:39 pm

You seem to think homelessness is some badge of honor. I won't qualify that with a response, I don't see it as something a person can debate.

I have to continue to disagree with you about tai chi. Have you trained in other styles? Because I can't believe a well rounded person would hold the opinion that the dance is more effective than dabbling in hands on training. You can't be a good baseball player if all you do is play catch, and ignore all other aspects of the game. You can't be a good fighter without actually fighting.

You're right up there with the teenagers who think they can control their chi and attack you with the power of rage. Yeah. Not in real life.
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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:21 pm

Being homeless is a test of fighting skills when you do not want to be tested.

I have studied five styles at length and others in pieces.
It took me over ten years to comprehend why Tai Chi
had any value as a Martial Art and a teacher who knew the offenses to the defense.

If you prefer the word "form" to the word "dance", fine.

Neither change change the content.

After 27 years of studying martial arts and more tests than I ever wanted,
I would choose the avoid-and-snapoff-parts before I'd ever just go toe-to-toe with fists
up and feet wide like a boxer.
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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:39 pm

Avoid and snap off, hah. Clearly you've never actually been punched. They don't do it slow enough and perfectly enough for your little routine. That's why full contact opens you to reality.
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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:41 pm

Clearly, you are guessing that I've never been punched.

I said, *at this point* in my life, I avoid.

Rolling like water is a learnable thing
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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:43 pm

Nemesis, do you have trouble understanding the reality of being homeless and the
inescapable situaton of about-to-be-punched 24 hours a day?
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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:53 pm

Nemesis, if you keep doing martial arts until you are 52 years old, what do you think you wil learn after becoming a blackbelt,...anything or will you be done?
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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:54 pm

Nemesis, some where in the world is a young lady who might type something like this:

"I am very skeptical about your claims re: Tai Chi
but
since Martial Arts is a learning-path,
and
most RLSH have something interesting to offer,
if I ever find a person who knows the martial applications for Tai Chi,
I'll keep an open mind.
Thank you for your input.".


Nemesis, have you ever met a young lady like this?
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Psyphon

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:12 pm

Flora,

You should just let it go. We all thought like that at one time, before we knew any better. At least I know I did. I'd be willing to bet you did too. How can you describe what it is to look at the sky to someone who has been blind their whole life. Our role is to educate and hope that a seed has been planted, so that when the time comes they'll be able to look back and say "I see what they meant now". If anyone really seeks the way and trains like they need to they'll get to that point eventually. I know I had to have a kind of martial arts epiphany to see things right, and I can remember the exact event (and it took like 15 or so years to get there). I'm sure if you think back you can too. Maybe some people just haven't had that moment yet.

Lets all just get back to different advantages of martial arts styles, instead of bashing martial arts styles. Focus on the good instead of personal dislikes. Remember you opinion doesn't make any difference to an attacker, only your actions do.
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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:21 pm

Thank you, Psyphon and, yes, you are wise.

I never did go through the "brownbeltitus" part or martial arts.

I came in curious, got () during my first week of study and spent the next few years of the early '80's just scared and studying and, like my idea of yoga,
I never thought that, as a white person, I could ever ever ever
learn anything near enough of either Martial Arts or Yoga.

So, by the time I studied anatomy at length and learned why Martial Arts
does the things that it claims to do and why Yoga says what it says,
I was way past the strut, thank goodness.

Thank you for taking the time to type to me.

You are very wise for your years
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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:38 pm

I don't have a belt, nor will earn a blackbelt...because I'm training to fight, not to bow, repeat japanese phrases, and do fancy moves in the air.

I've fought a lot of blackbelts...I've had even more refuse to fight full contact.

Truth? No one wants to admit they wasted 15 or so years on crap.

My dislike isn't personal. I could care less. I'm not into branding. I don't care what my martial art is called, or if I fit in neatly to one. I won't tattoo myself with appropriate symbols, seek any kind of belt or anything like that.

Trying to pass off tai chi as a practical combat art is hilarious...or would be if there weren't any stakes. But with martial arts rookies looking to find something to train them to be a superhero, it's downright dangerous.
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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:45 pm

But fighting is safe?
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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:57 pm

There is another martial art that I rejected due to it's simplicity
and because I was not allowed, by law, to carry a big knife.

I have, since, reconsidered my opinion of it.


Escrima
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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:59 pm

Nemesis, serious question:

why do people refuse to spar - full contact?
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Psyphon

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:06 am

Nemesis wrote:
I don't have a belt, nor will earn a blackbelt...because I'm training to fight, not to bow, repeat japanese phrases, and do fancy moves in the air.

I've fought a lot of blackbelts...I've had even more refuse to fight full contact.

Truth? No one wants to admit they wasted 15 or so years on crap.

I'm with you 100% this far. I do have a belt (a few actually), but unfortunatly for me it took a few black belt before I realized that, to quote Mr. Miagi "belts just good for holding pants up". They really don't mean anything. But I don't think that that 15 years was a waste because I learned a few base styles that created a foundation for the higher martial arts learning that I've done (remember I started in the 80's when there was still a fair number of good solid old style schools around).

I wish I could believe this statement because it would mean you are actually on the right path, but I can't. Because .....
Nemesis wrote:
My dislike isn't personal. I could care less. I'm not into branding. I don't care what my martial art is called, or if I fit in neatly to one. I won't tattoo myself with appropriate symbols, seek any kind of belt or anything like that.

.... this statement is ALL opinion.
Nemesis wrote:
Trying to pass off tai chi as a practical combat art is hilarious...or would be if there weren't any stakes. But with martial arts rookies looking to find something to train them to be a superhero, it's downright dangerous.

It's an opinion that shows ignorance of the utility of the body mechanics involved (I don't mean ignorant as in stupid ... I'm not trying to put you down. I mean ignorant as in inexperienced).

I haven't ignored you yet Nemesis like many others, not because I enjoy arguing with you, but because I haven't given up on you. I'd really like you to open your mind to the possibilities that maybe you may have missed something in your evaluation of soft arts as a whole, not just TCC.

Can I ask a question just to further my understanding of one of your statements please? Could you please describe/define what you mean by "full contact", and what combat stipulations are involved?
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