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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:11 am

Nemesis wrote:
Psyphon wrote:
All the martial arts debate in the world as to which system or style is the best really comes down to one thing. They are all the same at higher understandings. They all use the same principals.

Bullshit.

That's just the why don't we all get along martial arts fluff talk. If that were the case, there was no reason for martial arts to ever evolve at all. Not all martial arts are equal when it comes to practical self defense. Anyone telling you different is sheltered.

I agree that not all martial arts are good.
SHoToKan's linear one-punch is not worthy
nor are Tai Kwan Do's high kicks
and
it is noteworthy that Tai Kwan Do is not mentioned in this thread.

However, i don't know any martial arts school who encourage cussing
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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:05 am

There is a big difference between martial arts and actually fighting. Martial arts is like: "check it out! That's a nice kick!" Fighting is more of: "Keep on kicking, keep on kicking, keep on kicking ect."
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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:08 am

(wag)
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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:53 am

Psyphon wrote:
Nemesis wrote:
Psyphon wrote:
All the martial arts debate in the world as to which system or style is the best really comes down to one thing. They are all the same at higher understandings. They all use the same principals.

Bullshit.

That's just the why don't we all get along martial arts fluff talk. If that were the case, there was no reason for martial arts to ever evolve at all. Not all martial arts are equal when it comes to practical self defense. Anyone telling you different is sheltered.

I thought like you for my first 10-12 years training Nemisis. It's alright to think that way, but unless you've discovered some way to alter reality or circumvent the laws of physics and body mechanics you're wrong. There may be people that are more apt to excel in one martial art over another due to it's compatibility with their body composition or preferred battle tactics. There is also a clear division on ability based on your training regimen. There are even some martial arts that teach you to get good at rudimentary techniques at an accelerated pace, but they all have the same higher principles. When you've trained long enough and in enough styles they will all start to mesh together, and the distinction of one from another will become imperceptible.

Some martial arts NEVER approach the optimum use of physics and body mechanics. Anyone can make a martial art. Many idiots do. Many others twist well known arts into a watered down black belt factory school. Perhaps any martial artist can get to the same point by different paths, but I don't have 80 years to understand physics and anatomy. And the person who comes on here, is cheap or lazy, and then follows youtube videos of a soft art, instead of getting full contact and/or reality based training, plays superhero, gets themselves hurt or worse. And on that I cannot abide.

I was once banned because I *talked* about established criminology theory. The argument behind it was it was instigating dangerous activity. What could be more dangerous than giving someone a false sense of skill when it comes to violent combat?

This is not to say I am the end all be all, nor is my training. My training has big drawbacks for what we do, namely it's a sport fighting art, and I need to fill that gap with something military oriented.

That said, I'd take 5 years of Muay Thai over two decades of Tai Chi or Bagua or any other soft art, any day of the week. Some martial arts are superior at training you to be a fighter. It's just the way of it.
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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:30 am

Flora V. Arbor wrote:
Nemesis wrote:
Psyphon wrote:
All the martial arts debate in the world as to which system or style is the best really comes down to one thing. They are all the same at higher understandings. They all use the same principals.

Bullshit.

That's just the why don't we all get along martial arts fluff talk. If that were the case, there was no reason for martial arts to ever evolve at all. Not all martial arts are equal when it comes to practical self defense. Anyone telling you different is sheltered.

I agree that not all martial arts are good.
SHoToKan's linear one-punch is not worthy
nor are Tai Kwan Do's high kicks
and
it is noteworthy that Tai Kwan Do is not mentioned in this thread.

However, i don't know any martial arts school who encourage cussing


I agree that there are specific techniques in individual styles that are less useful, but i don't think that means that martial art is without it's merit. While Shotokan's linear punch is not effective in and of itself it teaches proper strike rotation at a VERY basic level. It can, if nothing else, be used as a learning tool.

TKD has two different wolds that it's split between. McDojo, family fun, sport, happy happy playtime TKD Has functional techniques but it's not taught in a way that makes it practical or functional. It also focuses on what looks cool or fancy over what works well.
Then there's militant combat TKD. Whole nother creature. Body conditioning like crazy. You sped 20-30ish minutes a class standing there getting caned (like with a bamboo cane). You smash things against your body, and then smash your body back against them. You still learn high kicks, but you learn when and where to use them, and the focus is more on rib or lower kicking. Lots more hand techniques involved and Hapkido is readily incorporated.
When I was a bouncer I actually used a TKD head level hook kick successfully in a multiple attacker scenario to stop the guys who started the fight in the first place from running away while I was wrapped up with one of his boys.

I'm not saying that they all teach equivalent individual techniques throughout the entire learning process. All I'm saying is that in all martial arts there comes a time when the teacher (if they are any good) says "Okay, so I've taught you STUFF. Now, go take that stuff and use the concepts you learned while attaining it, to fight correctly. This whole time I was teaching you moves, but what you really need to have learned was concepts. Moves are static, concepts are adaptable. Now fight, and adapt."
The conversation should go something like that. Every style of martial art (taught by the right person) should be able to get you to that conversation, and once you get there it doesn't matter what style got you there.
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Psyphon

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:38 am

Well Nemesis now you're talking about what works best for your time frame, body style, and fighting personality. That's personal and will change from person to person. Those are all attributes that I've already said will be factors the individual will have to evaluate for themselves to decide which martial art is best for them.
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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:46 pm

I have scoffed at TKD for years

but, young people who are raised doing any karate
learn to control their anger better
and to size people up better
and to cotrol their bodies better
and
since teaching karate to young people cannot be out-soursed,
I cannot find reason to wipe TKD shcools away
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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:56 pm

Look, Psyphon, there is some truth to what you say, but there are limits to that as well. At some level, there are some superior and inferior systems.

And every person I've ever met in person who's given me those same answers has either outright refused to full contact sparring, or was an absolute joke.

Maybe it's prejudice of me to associate their position on martial art vs martial art and their generally suckiness in the ring, but so far it's 100%.

Here's the real truth. No one wants to ever admit that their training, which they spent hundreds or thousands of dollars on, and years of their time, doesn't compare to a more effective combat method. So they get pissy and defensive.

Not saying that's you, I'm sure you're accomplished, but just speaking from experience with people I've interacted with face to face.
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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:24 pm

Nemisis,

you have typed, several times, that sending someone to youtube
for soft-style training is a bad idea.

I typed that idea.

In another thread, a person with little and little money
asked about martial arts.

Knowing that she could not do much but booking-learning or youtubery,
I suggested the learning of avoidance offered by Tai Chi.

In this thread, I, also, offer Tai Chi as decent cross-training for anyone.

I am happy to debate you on this subject.

Typing negative things about my idea in posts to other posters seems silly.

I do find that people who learn to take a lot of hits get brain damage
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Equal

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:33 pm

Nemesis, the reason some martial artist don't want to do full contact sparring can be many. Stop acting like you hold the key to the universe and you might make some friends here.
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Psyphon

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:27 pm

Nemesis wrote:
Look, Psyphon, there is some truth to what you say, but there are limits to that as well. At some level, there are some superior and inferior systems.

And every person I've ever met in person who's given me those same answers has either outright refused to full contact sparring, or was an absolute joke.

Maybe it's prejudice of me to associate their position on martial art vs martial art and their generally suckiness in the ring, but so far it's 100%.

Here's the real truth. No one wants to ever admit that their training, which they spent hundreds or thousands of dollars on, and years of their time, doesn't compare to a more effective combat method. So they get pissy and defensive.

Not saying that's you, I'm sure you're accomplished, but just speaking from experience with people I've interacted with face to face.

point 1: you're right about the "at some level" part of that statement. some martial arts bloom faster than others, but that does not make them better. Most of the early bloomers don't have near the potential as the ones that take longer to become effective.

point 2: what you call full contact sparring is not always possible with all styles. At least not with people who know what they are doing with most styles. In non-western/non-competitive styles the focus of the techniques being taught is to permanently maim, cripple or kill an opponent (not all of them, but most). Now in order for you to truly "full contact spar" with those people you'd have to say "Okay now I'll use EVERYTHING I know and you use EVERYTHING you know". Now if your competitive style doesn't include eye gouging or throat strikes are you going to say "but that's not part of full contact" when it happens to you?

I agree with you on one point though. I've seen more than a few martial artist talk big about their style that they've been in forever and then get it handed to them on a plate of whup-a$$. That goes for all styles though, not just for the softer or more traditional ones. I've seen it happen to MMA fighters as well. The real deciding factor when you're seeing that happen though is combat experience more than the effectiveness of the style. No matter how effective your style is the person with the biggest advantage is the person with the most real combat experience. This lack of combat experience happens much less with MMA fighters and other competition martial arts because they are trained in a more combat oriented atmosphere. Not because their art is better.

I'd like you to notice please that I'm not naming a primary art for myself because I wholly believe in what I'm saying. I traded lessons in new styles for teaching classes at an even exchange rate in most of the schools I've attended, so I do not fall into the category of "paid stupid amounts of money" for classes. As a matter of fact I only paid for classes like the first 5-6 years that I trained. I've ether been taken in, or traded, for the 17 years that followed. I don't mind going full contact in the ring, but I will admit I need 2-3 rounds to retrain myself to whatever particular set of "rules" the other fighter wants to fight under. I find it more than just a little distracting to hold to a single style while I'm fighting and I accidentally slip quite often and slide into a different style mid-fight. I don't like wearing pads, cups, mouth-guards or having rules about what can or cannot be done in any way shape or form. Me and my favorite training partners motto used to be "you either pass out, tap out, or die". No round timers, no restrictions.

I'm not here to brag though so I'm going to stop qualifying myself. My point is that I understand where you are coming from because I used to think like you. Your points are quite valid, but from a limited perspective. There is a larger view available regarding this subject. I'm here to help educate people if I can because I believe in what this community is doing. I may not be able to walk the walk that most of you do making your communities a safer place. But I'll help if I can in any subject that I know about because I respect all of you and want you to be your personal bests at what you do.

Okay, now back to the martial arts stuff ....
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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:37 pm

I always trained stuff that look pretty. Think I'll check out tai chi.
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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:19 pm

Flora,

We have to debate without me saying anything negative? We are already debating. You're happy to do something we are currently doing. I'm not being coy, I oppose your idea.

Psyphon,

I've seen military bent arts do full contact sparring, and it never includes eye gouges. It's questionable you clearly have an issue grasping what I mean by the term. In any case, there is no martial art that's worthwhile and doesn't have actual strikes or grappling. Not wanting to spar using those because you could also eye gouge is a weak excuse. Any young woman who has taken a single seminar for women's self defense knows the eye gouge and the groin kick. A master does not this knowledge make.

Dogman,

Not a few hours ago, I pointed out my training has much to be improved, particularly because my training doesn't deal with something a military combat system may add. Pretending this is me saying I'm better than everyone so suck it is a gross misrepresentation of my statements. Avoiding actual fighting is just an excuse. But hey, they'll find that out the hard way in a real self defense situation, I'm just trying to help.
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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:46 pm

People over estimate military combat systems, if by that you mean systems the US military actually uses. Level I modern army combatives includes only grappling (except for one punch drill in which you receive punches while trying to achieve the clench). The reason is to avoid injuring inexperienced students.

The class is only one week of continuous training, generally. Individual Soldiers on average have completed that or else had either no training or a few days in basic.

Higher levels of combatives include strikes and less restrictive sparring -- over 90% of soldiers have no involvement with that higher level training.

I also had some random civilian contractor stuff I went to. I would equate that to rape defense classes for women, basically... just replace the word "rapist" with "enemy."

Some groups within the army, like Rangers and SF and even MPs are exceptions.

Marines do a pretty good job with what they do.

AF (outside of SPs and Para-rescue, etc) and Navy (outside of SEALs and such)... I don't know for sure, but my guess would be nothing.

All people in the military have an edge over *average* people in terms of fitness, though.

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Psyphon

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:23 pm

E0N: I was in the Navy (though not a SEAL) and I can tell you that we did get basic hand to hand combat training but it was the functional equivalent of a basic self defense coarse mixed with a small amount of BJJ. Was a bit sad to say the least. I think when Nemesis is referring to "military combat" though he is most likely talking about the S.F. stuff, or even more likely than that krav.
It's disheartening to hear that you're training in the army wasn't much better than mine in the navy.

Nemesis: It's not about not being able to spar without eye gouges. That was just one of any number of examples I could have used. What I'm saying is the "full contact sparring" is NOT really full contact. It has rules. Those rules fall well within the confines of some martial arts, so for those martial arts it has very little impact on their functionality. On martial arts who's techniques fall outside of the rule system however you are effectively taking away tools that they have trained to use. If we get in the ring and I tell one person "you are allowed to use 98% of the moves you know" but then turn to the other person and say "but you are only allowed to use 15% of the techniques you know" of course the second person is going to be at a severe disadvantage. The only way to truly test one fighter against another is to let BOTH of them use 100% of their tools the entire time. And this method still doesn't test a style versus another style, all it does is test one combatant's personal abilities within that style against the other.

There is a good reason the "full contact" fights you've seen from those military bent martial arts didn't have eye gouging ...... it's against the rules.

If by martial arts with no "strikes or grappling" you mean that yellow bamboo stuff then I agree with you. There is no practical use for that at all.
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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:47 am

[quote="Nemesis"]Flora,

We have to debate without me saying anything negative? We are already debating. You're happy to do something we are currently doing. I'm not being coy, I oppose your idea.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I did not type that you should not say negative things.

I find the cussing proves nothing.

After many years of smashing, I found much value in adding soft styles to the mix.

I was very opposed to the dorky idea of just getting out of the way.
"How could THAT be "martial art"?"
my brain asked.

After watching a lot and being in enough and applying a lot more, I find that full-contact has, serious, limits.


Even the police, now, look to non-violent techniques - teargas, stuns, foam.

One of the best examples that can be viewed by all is "Bad Lads Army".

The young men WANT to smash but the grown men can't smash back.
So, they have to use non-violent restraint techniques.


Beating the crap out of people and saying that full-contact is the #1 way to handle things
and be the better "man" on the street
is, provably, not true.

I see some people freak out at being hit but only some.

By the time many people adults, they have been hit by parents, classmates or siblings.


Only a few demographics have people that - literally - FREAK from the experience of the first time being smacked.



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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:58 am

This thread is full of win.

While learning at a martial arts school is the best in terms of keeping you working out, learning new things, perfecting skills, getting real experience, etc., it is possible to become and stay very good even when you don't have access to all that.

I recommend, as always, Dirty Dozen by Larry Jordan. Short, sweet, to the point. Memorize and practice these 12 techniques daily.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:13 am

berry nice, Zimmer.
Thank yoU!
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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:04 pm

Oy Vey.

Do your thing. All I can speak on is my experience, which is with a wide variety of martial arts/artists, and most of them were bull. Don't come bitching to me when you find out how practical your tai chi or your ninjutsu is in a real situation. Assuming you will still be around to bitch.
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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:29 pm

Nemesis: please relate to us the last time you had to use your martial arts skill to defend yourself against a real, unscheduled opponent. Where you would likely have been seriously physically injured or killed had your skill not saved you.
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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:30 pm

By the way, you seem to be saying that most of your martial arts training was bull. Just pointing that out.
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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:37 pm

Nemesis,

I don't "bitch" to anyone
and
I have FAAAAAAR too many years behind me to be in "test" mode.

I have been homeless three times and AM still here.

This did not happen by magic or chance

and
I did not study Ninjitsu.

Are you grouping your answers?




Last edited by Flora V. Arbor on Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:41 pm

@ Gauge

Wink
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Dark Guardian

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:42 pm

I don't know where to start in this thread.

Nemesis makes a lot of good points.

There are superior styles, there are styles that teach you crap that will get you beaten, maimed, or killed in a real situation.

Sparring is extremely important. You can train for a long time, but if you do not spar you will likely not be able to use your skill in a real situation. While in a sparring match your not going full out as in a real life situation, it is the closest thing to it.

The too deadly for sparring stuff is nonsense. Look at the early UFC's, there were very few rules like no eye gouges or fish hooking. The whole I can't spar because my techniques are too deadly is bull. You should have the skill to spar without the "too deadly techniques" which are usually easy to add in stuff. If you can not spar well without eye gouges, groin kicks, throat strikes, etc. you probably suck.

I really disagree with some of psyphons assessments on styles especially calling soft Chinese arts the ultimate.

Keep what you do real, train hard, test it, apply it, spar, learn to get hit, and learn different styles.

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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: martial art styles   Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:54 pm

With animals that ARE going to hurt me, ONLY soft styles work.

I got a real think about what I can do when I decided to go to Alaska.

WOT am I going to do to a bear?
"MOVE" is the answer,
NOT spar at full power unless you are SURE you ca get that bear's eyes which I CANNOT recommend.

WOT can anyone do against a car?
"MOVE" is the answer.


Avoidance-learning is worth effort.

When I have new people, I teach the roll-off first, not sparring first
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