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PostSubject: Re: What Martial Art?   Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:13 pm

I'm not the one claiming anything is "COMPLETELY true"

I've fought people with Tai Chi training, and I've fought people with Aikido training. You ever sparred full contact with someone with Muay Thai or BJJ training?
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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: What Martial Art?   Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:19 pm

Nemesis wrote:
"I can take hits rather well"

I hear this all the goddamn time. It goes right with the next sentence usually said which is "and I've designed my own style" or "I train myself in ______"

There's no such thing as defensive vs offensive martial arts. That's PR made up by the XYZ-Do's to stay in the game with seemingly more brutal training methods.

You can't just repeatedly block, duck, and weave until your attacker passes out in exhaustion. Self Defense is about protecting yourself from the initial aggression, and then immediately disabling your aggressor's ability to continue.


Look, learn what you want, but I've just seen this time and time again, and I wish someone had been this frank with me when I did a year of ninjutsu before finding Muay Thai. Within a few months I sparred my old instructor, and they were a complete joke.

Which is fine and all, unless your life is depending on self defense skills you assume are up to snuff.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I'm not the one claiming anything is "COMPLETELY true"

I've fought people with Tai Chi training, and I've fought people with Aikido training. You ever sparred full contact with someone with Muay Thai or BJJ training? "
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do these two quotes, above, from you contradict each other?


Does your experience or any single person's experience constitute a firm paradigm
with which to make all statements for all people?
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Gauge



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PostSubject: Re: What Martial Art?   Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:29 pm

No system is unbeatable. If you have been sparring full contact with practitioners of other styles and win, I would suggest that has more to do with your ability and less to do with the style. The ability of your instructor will also make a significant impact on your progress. Flora is right though, you can technically exhaust an opponent to the point of near-collapse, as Muhammad Ali was famous for (see: rope-a-dope). It is classical strategy in warfare too because it works so well. A tenacious enemy will not just suddenly give up, but you will be able to take him down much easier. It's a decent one on one strategy against an opponent of similar ability but I wouldn't try it against multiple opponents or if there are bystanders. A quick takedown is always best, especially for rlsh, because the longer the fight the more chances exist for you to get hurt or worse.
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Chivalry




PostSubject: Re: What Martial Art?   Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:40 pm

I would suggest on learning a Martial Art, keep in mind I am no authority of giving advice on fighting, Krav Maga and To-Shin Do.

I just started Krav Maga and it will whip you into shape and push you hard partly the reason I'm taking it. It is also one of the most realistic fighting styles.

To-Shin Do is a modernization of Ninjutsu by Stephen K. Hayes. It is a mix and match of various different things and teaches a lot.
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Gauge



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PostSubject: Re: What Martial Art?   Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:08 pm

No martial art will push you; motivation must come from within you. But any good system should challenge you.
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PostSubject: Re: What Martial Art?   Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:43 pm

Flora V. Arbor wrote:
Do these two quotes, above, from you contradict each other?

Um, actually...no, they do not. I quoted you, saying something was completely true. Then I asked if you've ever fought a full contact fighter. They in no way contradict one another. In fact, they weren't even both statements. One was a statement. The other was a question.

Flora V. Arbor wrote:

Does your experience or any single person's experience constitute a firm paradigm
with which to make all statements for all people?

Nope. Then again, I'm still not the one talking about things that are completely true. Is it possible that your scenario could occur? Minutely, sure. You could be fighting a woefully incompetent 5 year old. Then I imagine you could block away. Is it incredibly bullshit advice for the reality of self defense? Yes, yes it is. Noticed how you didn't answer the question too.

Gauge wrote:
If you have been sparring full contact with practitioners of other styles and win, I would suggest that has more to do with your ability and less to do with the style.

Bull. That's part of it but there's a reason Muay Thai dominates in competitive MMA. Training style does matter. Not all systems are equal.

Gauge wrote:
you can technically exhaust an opponent to the point of near-collapse, as Muhammad Ali was famous for (see: rope-a-dope).

That's a terrible comparison. Ali's opponent was restricted to only a few types of strikes, wearing padded gloves, in a controlled environment with a referee. The street is the antithesis of that. No protection, you may be facing weapons, multiple opponents (and should always assume there are potential weapons or reinforcements for your enemy) and no one to save you if your strategy fails.
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PostSubject: Re: What Martial Art?   Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:49 pm

Chivalry wrote:
To-Shin Do is a modernization of Ninjutsu by Stephen K. Hayes. It is a mix and match of various different things and teaches a lot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To-Shin_Do

Be careful with ninjutsu. First of all, the existence of any ancient form of ninjutsu is highly suspect. It's blown way out of proportion by pop culture.

I studied "modern" ninjutsu for awhile, and did not find it very impressive. It does feature stand up and ground training, includes weapons, and some schools add techniques against modern armed attackers...so not a terrible choice if there's a school nearby and you don't have other viable options.

But I fought a blackbelt who used to instruct me soon after starting Muay Thai, and it only lasted about a minute before he needed to stop. That's not a blanket statement about all ninjutsu, but I've heard a lot of negative things because it lends itself to McDojo's...the ninja cool factor inspires that. So really choose with a critical eye where you are to train.

And as a general rule, regarding the books, I understand the frustration of not finding a local school, but there is no substitution for real training. Do not read a book and put yourself in danger depending on knowledge from it.
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Equal

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PostSubject: Re: What Martial Art?   Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:58 pm

I find the very consept of ninjutsu silly. What is ninjutsu anyways? Some kind of real ultimate power?
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Gauge



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PostSubject: Re: What Martial Art?   Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:32 pm

If you read my post thoroughly you would realize I said it is possible to exhaust an opponent in this way, but I didn't advise anyone to try it. Muay Thai is indeed formidable, but by your logic any student of Muay Thai should beat any student of Tai Chi. Fly that by your instructor. If he agrees then he is a fraud.

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PostSubject: Re: What Martial Art?   Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:08 pm

... I've seen blackbelts of some persuasions taken out by n00bs in other styles. Why? because the belt, the style, etc. is not a magic bullet.

What IS the magic bullet? training. training IN and AGAINST various people, in various styles, with various rules sets... get a full panoply of techniques for all situations and test them in as many ways as possible. Get your reflexes, and your speed, and your timing down. Learn to adapt, and think on the fly. And most of all, learn to keep fighting for as long as you have breath left.

Heart.

That's all it is- the heart to dedicate yourself to learning. The heart to push yourself. The heart to keep going. The heart to accept that there is much more to learn, no matter what you've learned so far.

Right now I'm doing Muay Thai, Wrestling and BJJ. One of my sparring partners is teaching me Sanda. I have and will likely one day continue learning My Jhong Law Horn/Northern Shaolin styles of Kung Fu. I'm a big advocate of reputable Sambo, Systema and Krav Maga classes. I want to learn some Savate techniques. I'm certifying in PPCT and Lock-Up arrest and control techniques.

I'm also certifying in Verbal Judo/Tactical Communciations/De-Esacalation tactics

I want a Full Arsenal.

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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: What Martial Art?   Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:58 pm

The young lady had limitations of space, time and money.

She can't get places. Not much is offered
and
she doesn't have loads of dough to hire a car and a tutor to get her all over.



Most of the responses, even the good ones, give her info that she will have to file for later,
when she gets other options.


It is very hard to find anyone who knows or teaches the martial applications for Tai Chi

but it is the easiest thing to learn all of in one sitting and defense is easier to learn
if you are taught to get out of the way - even if only by inches- than offense
( hoping that you CAN hit the correct spot hard enough ).

In this day and age, she can clickup Tai Chi NOW and be on thepath to better defense in the shortest period of time.

She seems sufficiently motivated to persue other things later, when she has different options.
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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: What Martial Art?   Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:04 pm

Nemesis wrote:
Flora V. Arbor wrote:
Do these two quotes, above, from you contradict each other?

Um, actually...no, they do not. I quoted you, saying something was completely true. Then I asked if you've ever fought a full contact fighter. They in no way contradict one another. In fact, they weren't even both statements. One was a statement. The other was a question.

Flora V. Arbor wrote:

Does your experience or any single person's experience constitute a firm paradigm
with which to make all statements for all people?

Nope. Then again, I'm still not the one talking about things that are completely true. Is it possible that your scenario could occur? Minutely, sure. You could be fighting a woefully incompetent 5 year old. Then I imagine you could block away. Is it incredibly bullshit advice for the reality of self defense? Yes, yes it is. Noticed how you didn't answer the question too.

Gauge wrote:
If you have been sparring full contact with practitioners of other styles and win, I would suggest that has more to do with your ability and less to do with the style.

Bull. That's part of it but there's a reason Muay Thai dominates in competitive MMA. Training style does matter. Not all systems are equal.

Gauge wrote:
you can technically exhaust an opponent to the point of near-collapse, as Muhammad Ali was famous for (see: rope-a-dope).

That's a terrible comparison. Ali's opponent was restricted to only a few types of strikes, wearing padded gloves, in a controlled environment with a referee. The street is the antithesis of that. No protection, you may be facing weapons, multiple opponents (and should always assume there are potential weapons or reinforcements for your enemy) and no one to save you if your strategy fails.

You are welcome to ask me questions but that is not the point of this thread
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thanatos

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PostSubject: Re: What Martial Art?   Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:05 pm

ninjitsu is more of a life skill using what you have rather than a fighting style like Karate. it teaches one to use what theyhave and to work within their own limitations of body and mind rather than advancing a style or system. it teaches to use what is effective for you and discard techniques that dont work for you.
it's also hard to describe Smile
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PostSubject: Re: What Martial Art?   Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:14 pm

And it's also a modern invention. Which is fine, but it's by nature a lie. The ninja weren't monks who devised their own martial art form. They were peasants who fought back against landed elite, and used a myriad of guerilla style tactics.

As for all the it's not the art, it's the person, that's true to a degree, but I've still never heard or seen verifiably that a tai chi practitioner has successfully fought against something like Muay Thai. Depending on it for self defense isn't only silly, it's dangerous.

Except these guys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W1ym3yggR4

They will fucking end you.
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PostSubject: Re: What Martial Art?   Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:16 pm

... Uhm, actually the original Shinobi (like the historical Hatori Hanzo) were Samurai who were simply skilled at stealth and assassination.
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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: What Martial Art?   Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:23 pm

I thought that we weren't supposed to use cuss words here
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thanatos

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PostSubject: Re: What Martial Art?   Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:25 pm

historically it goes back to before the start of the shogunate. tey were just more sneaky and willing to do things that the 'honorable' samurai would not consider doing. they didnt devise their own system, they used parts of everything available to them to accomplish their goals.

when asking about what martial art is best there is no simple answer. every art has advantages and good points as well as weakness. the best arts evolved over time to fit their enviroment and still evolve today.

take a look at Krav Magra forty years ago to what is taught today. evolution is ongoing or the art becomes stagnant.

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PostSubject: Re: What Martial Art?   Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:29 pm

I'm sure there is good training out there under the name ninjutsu, that evolution you're talking about. I just don't believe for a minute it was handed down all that way, they weren't that organized, and in the 80s, people were taking advantage of the craze, so we get what we get today. It's not the worst style I've trained in, but it isn't the best, and it certainly won't make you Batman.
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thanatos

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PostSubject: Re: What Martial Art?   Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:32 pm

only being a millionaire will make you batman.

the problem with a lot of good martial arts is that it gets used in some movie and everybody jumps for it as the best. look at Steven Segal making bad guys beat themselves up. remember Chuck Norris (the buy in the RazorHawk pajamies) and Jackie Chan. it looks good on film so they flock to learn, find it isnt the movies and go looking for something else.
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Gauge



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PostSubject: Re: What Martial Art?   Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:31 am

Shinobi were most often peasants class, with a minority being disgraced samurai. Samurai often employed ninja to do things that went against the Bushido code so that they would not be disgraced by breaking it. Ninja figured prominently in many wars. And they never used throwing stars. That's pure Hollywood.
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PostSubject: Re: What Martial Art?   Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:31 am

And I'm sure some ninja's were closer to our modern interpretation than others, but it's just worth noting that there wasn't ninja school or anything.
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Gauge



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PostSubject: Re: What Martial Art?   Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:57 am

"ninja" philosophy and martial practice were brought to Japan by the Chinese, and with much of that knowledge by way of India. Quite contrary to Nemesis's opinion, there have been ninja schools (ryus). In the 11th century I believe, Daisuke Tokagure, a samurai who lost his lands and title through war, and later renounced Bushido code, met Kain Doshi, a Chinese warrior monk. They developed ninjutsu together, and Daisuke's descendants created the Tokagureryu, the first ninja school.

Correction: it was 12th century
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Gauge



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PostSubject: Re: What Martial Art?   Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:05 am

One additional clarification: I didn't mean they created ninjutsu, just that they formalized the system.
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PostSubject: Re: What Martial Art?   Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:39 am

Citation?
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Gauge



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PostSubject: Re: What Martial Art?   Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:50 am

Years of historical study. Genghis Khan lived in this era and I am a student of his warfare strategy. It only makes good sense to study others too. Where did you get the notion there were no schools?
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