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Rebound

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PostSubject: Martial Arts options   Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:10 pm

I'm looking at starting a new martial art in the spring. There are several options offered in my area, which one would be most useful?

Mixed Martial Arts
Muay Thai
Submission Grappling
Brazilian Jui-Jitsu
American Kenpo

MMA I've watched a few times on TV, but don't know much about. Muay Thai would be cool, but that's just because Ong Bak is one of my favorite fight movies of all time. Submission grappling, sounds useful but limited. Brazilian Jui-Jitsu may be better because I know that involves a lot of grappling too. Kenpo I don't know much about.

Which of these are specifically self defense arts and which are more athletic competition oriented? Anyone skilled in any of these that could tell me more about them?
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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts options   Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:57 pm

take Tai Chi and THEN
take grappling and THEN take Kenpo.


You will RULE Kenpo if you do things in this order


Then, do landscaping and you will be able to hit harder than ANYTHING!
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Dark Guardian

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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts options   Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:25 pm

-MMA : You will learn stand up fighting, clinching, takedowns and ground fighting. You should build good skill in all ranges. The negative is focus on sport-fighting rather than anything goes street-fighting. Even though it is not street oriented, the moves will work in a street-fight.

-Muay Thai : Personally I love it for stand up fighting. It can be devastating. Great in stand up and clinching range. Good hands, powerful kicks, devastating elbows and knees. Negative sport-fighting. No ground work.

-Submission Grappling : Can be good. Good ground work. Should have some good takedowns. Negative is sport-fighting and lack of striking.

-BJJ : Great art. Can work very well in self defense. Best groundwork you can do. Negative is sport-fighting and lack of striking.

-American Kenpo - I am a Kempo practitioner and instructor. My style is mostly based in Kajukenbo. I do some stuff from American Kenpo. It can be good, but it depends on the school/instructor. Good is its focus on self defense and street-fighting. Bad is lack of ground fighting and some places get a little slap happy with their strikes. A good place really depends on the instructor and their adaptation of the art.

Hope this helps. A lot for every art depends on the instructor/school you go to. They are legit and good arts to study.
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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts options   Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:34 pm

but none of these let you hit as hard as we do in landscaping


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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts options   Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:31 am

Im in MN and there are MMA gyms popping up all over. I dont know if its like that in your area, but joining one of those could help you train, meet people and learn how to fight.
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Prof. Midnight

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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts options   Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:54 pm

Several of those amount to the same style. MMA is typically BJJ or submission wrestling and muay thai. Personally, I wouldn't want to go to the ground if I could help it and BJJ and sub wrestling are both ground/grappling arts. American kenpo might be you best bet, depending on the school.
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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts options   Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:38 pm

I agree with Prof on not wanting to go to ground if you can help it, but sometimes you gotta.

Being well-rounded ain't a bad idea.
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Rebound

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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts options   Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:37 am

Well, we were doing some quick ground work matches today, starting back to back with a partner and then turning when the instructor said go and trying to pin them. Frankly, I got my @$$ handed to me. It's kind of depressing actually. The first guy had 80-90 pounds on me and used his wrestling background to just encircle my legs and crawl up my body, holding me tight enough that I couldn't get my arms up for a choke. The second guy was just faster. The third guy, me and him were choking each other for a while, I eventually let him get the upper hand because I couldn't get in a position to choke him safely, so he choked me rather than me trying to crush his windpipe.

What did I learn from this? I need more groundwork, but, like Prof Midnight said, I probably don't want to go down to the ground if I don't have to. From what DG said, I think I might be leaning towards BJJ, since I think that may be what the instructors main background is in, but I'm not sure. I'll have to find out, but I think the Kenpo class might taught by a different person who has that as their main discipline. Maybe I could do both if its not too pricey.
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E0N (Inactive)

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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts options   Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:43 am

"The first guy had 80-90 pounds on me..."

Don't feel too bad. I don't know a lot, but I have experienced that if someone outweighs you and we're talking about grappling, he's going to win unless you just do everything right and he makes a lot of mistakes.

"...me and him were choking each other for a while..."

If you do a successful blood choke that's impossible... the person passes out. Air chokes with people getting chances to gasp for breath are what can drag out...

Like I said. I don't know a lot. So sorry to try to be a weisenheimer here.

(EDIT... oh, also the common mistake... going for a finishing move [like a choke] without being in a dominant position... that can drag out any choke... and you must have been doing that or the other guy couldn't also be choking you... maybe Razorhawk or Superhero will give you some real [not amateur] advice on this.)
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Superhero

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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts options   Mon Nov 08, 2010 1:02 pm

This is one I usually avoid too because everybody had ideas about what the best art is. I remember when Segal was running his mouth in a Black belt magazine about how Akkido was the greatest art with no rival so Superfoot Wallace invited him to get in the ring, Segal printed a retraction in a big hurry. Basically Nothing ou take is gonna hurt you. But you'll find your strenghths & roll with them so try different arts.

I was a lousy Boxer, My hands were to slow. I'm not a good kickboxer because I don't have a "Killer instict" or a Competative nature" if somebody slipped a glove or something I would back off & let them adjust their gear & you can't do that.

Defense Tatcics, I accelerated at that because they're trying to hurt me & then I can get a hold of them. Edged Weapons, I actually got away from the classes & ended up teaching on my own for awhile.

So try different things & see why you do best at, then play your strengths.

EDIT: Oh yeah & don't think a pro-Westler can't "Kill you with his Thumbs" either. Of all the stuff I've ever taken that's where I learned the Nastiest tricks. If there's a school around you you might wanna stick your nose in.
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Rebound

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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts options   Mon Nov 08, 2010 1:33 pm

When I say we were choking each other, I meant we were both trying to unsuccessfully for a while. We were both down on our knees, his right arm was around my neck, I was holding him away from actually getting the choke hold by pressing my right palm against his throat with my left around the back of his neck and the only way I could have stopped him going into the hold was just trying to squeeze his windpipe, not a proper choke. As I tried to move my arms around to come at it another way, I couldn't stop him going in for the real choke hold and I started passing out. I always figure if I were fighting for my life, I'd have no qualms about squeezing, scratching, and ya know punching, but like Superhero I don't have the Killer Instinct for stuff like that if someone isn't getting me mad and scared enough to want to seriously hurt them.

The huge guy that I was paired off with first is actually one of my favorite to work with in the class. Even though I can't throw him, its nice to be able to practice some of the other take downs to find out which ones still work. He's not the most aggressive in the class either, there are two other big strong guys that I try to pair up with when I want to grapple with someone who's really gonna try their hardest to take you down fast and then really get into it on the ground in Kasa Gatami or however you spell it.
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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts options   Mon Nov 08, 2010 1:35 pm

man, you CAN throw bigger people

you just have to get your hip a bit lower than their center of gravity
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E0N (Inactive)

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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts options   Mon Nov 08, 2010 1:52 pm

No argument, Flora. I just meant close in grappling... he says sheepishly.
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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts options   Mon Nov 08, 2010 1:59 pm

Mega! dahling!

i was @ Rebound!

I wasn't even picking on you this time!!
( have you noticed that I have been behaving???)

Wink


I just gave a throwing lesson yesterday and scared two
of my big ladies who think that I am scrawny and that they are heavy

BWA HAAA!!!



There is a program called
"Last One Standing"


The big guy gets WINDED and thrown HARD by the smart arse who spent
childhood fighting with his brother
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E0N (Inactive)

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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts options   Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:10 pm

Thanks. I had some endurance this morning. Not much, but a little.

Rebound, actually working out with bigger heavier guys is better -- for you.
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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts options   Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:22 pm

My Cardio Karate workout will soon be available
as a download on my webiste

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Atavistik

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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts options   Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:40 pm

KUNG FU GARDENER!!!!!!!!!!!!

Flora ain't kidding guys. 8 hours of weedeater is both isometrics and a form of massage
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Rebound

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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts options   Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:09 pm

@Mega- It definitely helps working out against the big guys. It makes doing the same technique on a lighter person seem easier and faster. Anyway, I'm not worried so much about the people small enough to restrain just by grabbing them, its the 250-280 pound football players built like chubby tanks that like to get drunk and rowdy that I think I'd have more problems with. I really just need to find a huge guy to join team Rebound in the patrols and training, I'm tall but it'd be nice to have someone big as well as tall to act as backup.

@Flora- The sensei told me to stop trying to throw the big guy, even though I was taking your advice and getting down low under his center of gravity. I think he was afraid we'd hurt each other if I just pulled him over on top of me. I can feel when trying to lift him that with perfect technique and a supreme effort I might be able to start to flip him, but if he shifted his weight either way it probably wouldn't work. I almost have to take a sumo stance to get low enough though, that makes using the correct form difficult.
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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts options   Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:24 pm

keep in mind, most martial arts training is against a single opponent.

This can be bad because you are not learning to deal realistically with predators.

Street Predators do not fight one on one, they tend to fight 3 on one or more.

Without getting into endless detail, from what you have available I'd go after the Kenpo training. Aikido would be prefered, but that's not an option.
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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts options   Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:29 pm

Littler people are FAST and not necessarily easy to throw.

Throwing is, almost, just for class.

Seabear makes a good point
about street fights happening in groups.

Most practical is pushing a person running at you
into something
and let them use their motion to your advantage
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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts options   Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:33 pm

Atavistik wrote:
KUNG FU GARDENER!!!!!!!!!!!!

Flora ain't kidding guys. 8 hours of weedeater is both isometrics and a form of massage

WEEDEATER!

BWAAAAHAAAA!


I get to do rototiller tomorrow!

WAAAA HAAAAAA!

We get VERY strong hands from the rototiller!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(My client is having me build a walking labyrinth in her front yard)

Last week, I got to use one of the long-pole tree-limb cutters.

THAT is practice for long staff work!
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ZERO

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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts options   Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:35 am

Starting Systema sometime this month. Really nasty style. Always loved it.
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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts options   Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:36 am

Z wrote:
Starting Systema sometime this month. Really nasty style. Always loved it.

Is that the russian version of the Line System?
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E0N (Inactive)

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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts options   Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:15 am

Follow on question, are you talking about the same Line system as the marines used to use?
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Superhero

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PostSubject: Re: Martial Arts options   Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:08 pm

@reb: I've kinda hung back & just read this one over for ya. I think I'm gonna get Symbiote to come to town & we'll shoot a video for ya of how to stay away & hurt the bigger guy, but until then yeah Flora is right and only in the Dojo...Tossing a bigger guy can be done, but do you really want to get in close and LOWER on a guy like me, Raz, or heaven forbid Phantom Zero and try to toss 'em?

In the mean time, if you don't want to go to ground with the bigger guy, every time he tries to grab you, step off to the side & block the arms. Then with the other hand either crack him across the nose....or even worse take your thumb & run it up the ridge of his nose into his eye. That should be the end of the fight.

If he tries to shoot dead in on you like he's going for a fireman's carry or a double leg sweep, drop one leg back like you're doing a lunge, sissor his head between your forearms and toss him off to the side where you dropped back the leg. From there you can either let go & stay up, or get on top of him into three point control & use his head for a speed bag.

I'm sure you know what I'm talking about but the next time I get together with Sym I'll see if he wants to shoot a demo. That boy is a killing machine though. His idea of getting the bigger guy was to DIVE over the top of him...get him in a choke upside down & they both go to the mats like a vertical sulpex while he's choking him out! He actually did this! So there are all kinds of ways to get the bigger guy. Those are just simple two that work well.
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