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 Correct hand positioning on straight punches - READ

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PostSubject: Correct hand positioning on straight punches - READ   Wed Oct 06, 2010 4:37 pm

Full contact kickboxer here, although I've trained in both karate and kickboxing also. Here to share some wealth with you, and this is something I've developed from personal training experience.

Hand positioning, very important.

After my last kickboxing fight, I began to question hand positioning. When one punches where should his hands actually be? I was fighting an opponent with a longer reach, and everytime I tried to jab him I was hit in the face by one of his own straight punches, which effectively disabled my own jab combinations because everytime I'd try to start a combination off my jab I'd be thrown out of rhythm by my opponents jab.

I've been trying to figure out a way to both attack AND defend at the same time for such situations, and after trying out my newest method of hand positioning (adapted from crazy monkey defense) I've found great success in being able to push forward with pressure and not be greeted with a shot back to the face disabling my attack. Despite everything, if someone has both the balls and the iron chin then they can swing wildly through your attack and still hit you if they want it enough, and nothing you can do can stop that. However I believe this method works, it works for me at least.




Position 1 (Street fighting/untrained) - This hand position leaves your head WIDE open, all someone has to do is take your punch on the chin and swing back wildly, and they'll land a shot.

Position 2 (Boxing) - This hand position protects your jaw, the attacking punches shoulder is hunched up as your punch protecting your shoulder (In this position the left hand is jabbing, therefore the left shoulder is up). The face is still wide open even with your chin down, you can still take damage to the nose/eyesocket

Position 3 (Modified Crazy Monkey) - The defending hand has been placed against the eyebrow when punching, using the forearm to protect from any incoming punches. The attacking shoulder is hunched up just like in a correct boxing position. This will protect you more from incoming attacks as you attack, so if you go to punch a target and he throws a punch right back at you, it'll hit the arm. Weaknesses with this position is an exposed body area, however this is for self defense use and not boxing use. If you're called into combat on the street your opponent won't know where you're open, he won't have time to pick out openings with your stance. The only exposed area with this position is your forehead.

((NOTE: I AM NOT SUGGESTING YOUR WALK AROUND WITH HANDS ON YOUR FOREHEAD ALL THE TIME, ONLY WHEN PUNCHING SHOULD THE REAR HAND BE RAISED TO YOUR EYEBROW TO PROTECT YOUR FACE, WHEN NOT PUNCHING YOU SHOULD BE IN A REGULAR BOXING/KICKBOXING/MUAY THAI STANCE. HAVING YOUR HANDS RAISED HIGH CONSTANTLY SLOWS YOUR MOVEMENT))

Below I will show some images of the various positions, the red areas are the open target zones that can be hit. Decide for yourself which is best and feel free to share your opinion.

Street fighting position


Boxing position


Modified CMD hand position (My current hand position)


Last edited by X on Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:25 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Correct hand positioning on straight punches - READ   Wed Oct 06, 2010 4:38 pm

Based on peoples opinions and responses, if this is viewed as a hit I'll begin a guide on how to get in a good stance/how to attack etc.
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PostSubject: Re: Correct hand positioning on straight punches - READ   Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:07 pm

What about kicks to the ding ding?

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PostSubject: Re: Correct hand positioning on straight punches - READ   Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:22 pm

Victim wrote:
What about kicks to the ding ding?


Your hand position has nothing to do with protecting your balls, you protect your balls by standing at a slight angle to your opponent and being aware of the threat. Although for street fighting, I'd suggest wearing a protective cup if you were out on patrol.

But that's for another time when it comes to stance and body positioning, this is just for discussion of where to put your defending hand when throwing a straight punch. If enough people actually like the way I explain things and go into them, I'd gladly take a bunch of photos and do a write up on how to get into a proper EFFECTIVE fighting stance.
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PostSubject: Re: Correct hand positioning on straight punches - READ   Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:35 pm

So all your suggesting is raising your guarding hand higher when you punch.

I don't get the crazy monkey stuff.
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PostSubject: Re: Correct hand positioning on straight punches - READ   Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:47 pm

Dark Guardian wrote:
So all your suggesting is raising your guarding hand higher when you punch.

I don't get the crazy monkey stuff.

I get crazy monkey stuff, but I don't practice it. In my personal opinion it's simply new age martial arts trying to cash in by being "different".

But what I am suggesting is exactly what you said, raising your guarding hand higher when you throw any kind of straight punch. Trying to weigh up the pros and cons, it'll expose more body but on the flip side it'll cover your face more. You've had a proper match I believe Guardian, therefore you're aware of how crazy things are when both people are colliding. It's completely unlike sparring, whoever pushes it more is the person who tends to win the exchange. By raising the rear hand higher, I believe it'd be a good way to cheat.

As for the crazy monkey aspect of raising the rear hand, one of the primary rules of boxing is to throw punches from the chin, to do this we keep the rear hand cheekbone level so we can check our chin. Crazy monkey focuses on defense by throwing punches from the top of the head, something I dislike to the fact it raises my center of gravity and makes it slightly harder for me to move therefore I stick to a regular kickboxing stance. I'd much rather simply raise the rear hand into crazy monkey position when throwing out a straight punch, be it a jab or a rear cross. Based on my own experience I have learned that it is important to always have a hand guarding your face when throwing a jab, to me this seems the best position for the rear hand to be in.

And as for putting it as bluntly as you did, I train hard and I help out with teaching down my club. I like to explain things so that people can understand, if I tell someone to raise their hand higher then they're just raising their hand higher, but if I explain what the purpose of raising your hand higher is then it passes on my experience to them, making them a more capable fighter and less of a stiff robotic fighter.

Your thoughts?


Last edited by X on Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dark Guardian

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PostSubject: Re: Correct hand positioning on straight punches - READ   Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:54 pm

I hold my hands a little higher than boxing usually, because I train muay thai. My stance is somwhere between boxing and muay thai. I do what you said if I'm trying to get in real close. Sometimes I keep my regular position and use more of my head movement and footwork to get past the the punch and get in though.
I think it all really depends what is goign on and what you feel comftorable with. I would not say always keep your hand there when coming in though.
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PostSubject: Re: Correct hand positioning on straight punches - READ   Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:05 pm

Dark Guardian wrote:
I hold my hands a little higher than boxing usually, because I train muay thai. My stance is somwhere between boxing and muay thai. I do what you said if I'm trying to get in real close. Sometimes I keep my regular position and use more of my head movement and footwork to get past the the punch and get in though.
I think it all really depends what is goign on and what you feel comftorable with. I would not say always keep your hand there when coming in though.

If I'm at a comfortable distance I'll keep my hands nice and relaxed down near my chin, simply because it keeps me a little lighter on my feet and faster when pulling the trigger. If I keep my hands higher than my chin it feels as if it's restricting my movement somehow, I thing it's simply because it makes me far too top heavy. For now going to continue drilling placing my defending hand on my head when punching, trying to get to a guard where I can step forward with double jabs to close the distance without catching a jab or a right hand on the way in if I'm unlucky. One guy I know places his rear hand over his mouth, palm facing opponent so that any shots are caught in the palm of his hand, problem is that on the street it'd break his hand.
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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: Correct hand positioning on straight punches - READ   Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:05 pm

you are gonna get hit in the face with your own hands from underneathe pushing of your elbow.


VERTICLE punches do not telegraph
and
do not leave your under arm open.




In my opinion, if you try to hit his face,
you just like hitting.

Either you are there to end the fight or
you just like hitting
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PostSubject: Re: Correct hand positioning on straight punches - READ   Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:20 pm

I once broke my hand punching incorrectly. this is good advise and should be listened to. not that I don't know HOW to punch, but I was in such a fit of rage I wasn't paying attention to what I was doing and crack! now I have cool wolverine type scars where the pins in my hand were.

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Blue Alpha

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PostSubject: Re: Correct hand positioning on straight punches - READ   Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:20 pm

I keep my gaurd hand up to my cheekbone with my chin tucked in. For max speed (this takes practice) and velocity, keep your hand open while striking and curl it into a fist at the last moment, and don't forget to rotate your arm.
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PostSubject: Re: Correct hand positioning on straight punches - READ   Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:22 pm

snapping is also something to consider, similar to what BA said. no need to plow through your opponent, that just leaves you open to recourse, but snapping back makes your hit more effective and uses less energy.

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Flora V. Arbor

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PostSubject: Re: Correct hand positioning on straight punches - READ   Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:27 pm

step IN, turn body and get your FACE out of the way



use your heel palm or elbow instead of a punch


and
really,

what is your goal?

either you want this thing over or you are playing around and getting exercise

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PostSubject: Re: Correct hand positioning on straight punches - READ   Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:57 am

"step IN, turn body and get your FACE out of the way"
If you turn your face away from your target, you can't see what you're punching. Very basic level boxing, always keep your eyes on your opponent especially when punching.


The last few posters made 0 sense to me in regards to this subject.

In terms of hitting yourself with your own hands from the underneath.. of the elbow? (I don't understand?)

The basic boxing cover up involves placing the fingers against the forehead, this is no different. The defending hand has the fingers pressed firmly against the spot just above the forehead, thus preventing your hand bouncing back and hitting yourself in the face. This is very basic level boxing stuff.


And as for using your heel palm or elbow, are you kidding? If you've ever actually been in a real fight or even a sparring match, it's alot harder to land shots then you're lead to believe from watching movies. Using your palm is something best left for the movies, it's a good way to break your wrist. Using elbows are great if you can actually get in close enough to use them, but you need to set them up with longer range punches to actually close the distance between yourself and your opponent.

I've had a few amateur fights and I've trained for quite a while, originally in boxing and then kickboxing. I know all about snapping punches, but once you get into the real thing (be it on the street or a real fight in the ring, not just a sparring match) things get wild. Someone is liable to let you hit them just so they can throw a punch back in the opening.

Elbows are fine, but you have to close the gap with punches first, hence this thread.

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PostSubject: ASAP   Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:55 am

I am enjoying the discussion.

In my training (not that much and 25 years ago) we trained to wait until the opponent committed to an attack, then remove a weapon/counter and put them away ASAP. These days I'd try for a heel stomp on an instep and walk away.
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PostSubject: Re: Correct hand positioning on straight punches - READ   Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:57 am

Championship Fighting by Jack Dempsey (1950)

check it out.

for an old school boxer, he had a lot of physics behind the way he punched, which is why he knocked out men WAY outside of his weight class.
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PostSubject: Re: Correct hand positioning on straight punches - READ   Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:18 am

traditionally the palm heel is a shot from the front, from about the waist and shot up



palm heels can be effective and not risk your wrist.


if when striking, you rotate your hand to horizontal and aim with the meaty part over the bone in the bottom of you hand. pinky side.



then your arm carries the motion, its founded in the trunk, where as the tradtional is drawing power mostly from your arm.

with the unidirectional force, it is more of a battering ram. aimed at the softspots of the face.

for extra fun, upon disengagement from the attack, rotate the hand back to normal position. you'll grind their face really nice =)
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PostSubject: Re: Correct hand positioning on straight punches - READ   Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:32 pm

Some of this is covered under my Fechtbuch Thread. I haven't gotten to attacks and defenses yet.

But this thread is shaping up nicely.
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PostSubject: Re: Correct hand positioning on straight punches - READ   Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:20 pm

Edit:
Nevermind.

Just listen to Flora, Dark Guardian, Knight Owl, and Silver Sentinel.

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PostSubject: Re: Correct hand positioning on straight punches - READ   Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:34 pm

I see nothing at all wrong with a well-executed palm heel strike. If you know what you're doing, it is no riskier than any other strike on a moving target (assuming your target is not sitting still waiting for you to hit them). Just keep it simple. A street fight is no place to get fancy. Hit soft targets with a hard hand and hard targets with a soft hand. As for your crazy monkey, if it works for you in competition, I see no reason to stop using it, I guess, but I would never place my hand in any position that obscures my vision and/or depth perception for even an instant. Competitions have rules, street fights do not. Don't wait for your opponent to expose his face or body, he may not be willing to fight according to your plan. And I seiously doubt that anyone on the street is going to take a punch on purpose in order to counter, unless they are 5 times your size or a highly trained fighter and have found your punches lacking in sufficient strength to do any real damage. Hit whatever is available. I have ended many fights by striking my opponent's arm, just above the elbow. Flora's advice of also watching your underarm would have been welcome by a few people I have faced, as well. Just remember that the street is vastly different than organized sports, and adjust your tactics accordingly.
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PostSubject: Re: Correct hand positioning on straight punches - READ   Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:05 pm

this thread is very educational but can i ask one thing?


X, who are you? maybe you wanna go make an intro post before you start telling people what they should do.
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PostSubject: Re: Correct hand positioning on straight punches - READ   Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:48 pm

X, if your intro is "I'm X. I know how to punch people." Then I will LOL.
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PostSubject: Re: Correct hand positioning on straight punches - READ   Fri Oct 08, 2010 4:28 pm

Champion wrote:
this thread is very educational but can i ask one thing?


X, who are you? maybe you wanna go make an intro post before you start telling people what they should do.

Actually he did back in April:
http://www.therlsh.net/introductions-f19/greetings-from-the-uk-t2164.htm

Posted a few times then dropped off the map until now.
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PostSubject: Re: Correct hand positioning on straight punches - READ   Fri Oct 08, 2010 5:09 pm

I hate using fists in a fight. Kicks, elbows, open hand/heel strikes, or a submission is my game;)


X, don't take this wrong but whenever someone talks about fighting, you respond to most people's posts with an "I'm an awesome fighter and you are all retards. Your ideas and training suck." Take in mind there are many styles and ways of doing things, and everyone has their own way of defending themselves. My style is brutal, short strikes until I can get ahold of an arm, leg, foot, neck, ear, whatever and make them give up, knock 'em out, or God forbid, injure them enough until they're not a threat anymore.
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PostSubject: Re: Correct hand positioning on straight punches - READ   Fri Oct 08, 2010 5:40 pm

@Blue Alpha,

Indeed...the worst part of fighting (and I have never been in a fight outside of training class) is the chaotic nature of it; you have to end it ASAP before something unexpected happens, like your opponent helping you stumble into the plate glass window behind you that you forgot about. Combat needs to be, like Hobbes's description of life in the Middle Ages, nasty, brutish, and short.
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