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PostSubject: Which Martial Arts?   Thu May 06, 2010 10:28 pm

I'm trying to figure out which martial arts i should learn that would be helpful realistically and in a defensive situation. I've been an athlete my whole life, and I have quick reflexes from my marine dad always putting me into various locks and play punching me when we used to play.


I'm also wondering if it's more effective to take lessons somewhere, or if there are other places (video, internet) where i could learn said martial art.


(new to forums BTW)
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martial Arts?   Thu May 06, 2010 10:41 pm

get ready for a HUGE Debate over who can kick whose butt in the movies & what art is best.

The safest thing to say is Nothing you take is going to hurt you. Standing or on the ground, mix it up.
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martial Arts?   Thu May 06, 2010 11:26 pm

I have practice martial arts my whole life. Though knowing multiple styles is good and helps. But as far as a particular style find something that better fits you,or look at the styles and find something that interests you the most. As far as what form of martial arts is the best? I have to put it this way,It's not the style it's the martial artist that makes you the best.
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martial Arts?   Thu May 06, 2010 11:29 pm

It's always more effective to train at a school or dojo. The quality of the place and its instructor is more important than the style. Try looking for a school that teaches both striking and grappling. Visit several places and see which one has training that is "alive." By alive I mean training realistic scenarios against resisting opponents. I personally believe if there's no sparring at all or actual grappling for a grappling style, then you're not learning in a way that will allow you to use what you learn.

As a general rule look for styles that are based on self defense and not sport fighting. Now here's where the debates will start...real self defense moves can't be practiced exactly like you'd do them, but some combat sports like Judo, Boxing, and MMA can. Those 3 sports might not be the best actual moves to use for self defense, but the boxing guy who actually competes will usually beat the Karate guy who doesn't do full contact. It's not because boxing moves are better, it's because his training is more realistic. He's used to being hit and hitting a moving target. Grapplers do well in MMA because they can practice their art full go without killing each other.

But then there are sports centric styles that won't help you at all. Stay far, far away from a Tae Kwon Do or Karate school that is only training people for points competitions. Not all Karate and TKD schools are like that, but a LOT are. The trick is to find a school that teaches all of the nasty self defense moves and multiple opponent strategies, but practices the things that can be safely practiced through actual sparring and mat work.

If you CAN, take a traditional martial art like Kenpo Karate, Kajukenbo, or Hapkido, and then supplement it with some boxing or Judo lessons. Judo is super cheap and a good alternative to expensive BJJ classes if you want to learn ground fighting. You'll also learn how to stay on your feet. If you take MMA classes, you can become a strong fighter, but just be aware that the tactics on the street are not going to be the same. Learn how to fight on the ground, but don't take someone down on purpose on the streets. It's a good way to get your head stomped by his buddy around the corner. You also want the option to run away to remain open. This is another thing I like about Judo personally....you get a good sense of balance and the ability to stay standing. And the takedowns you learn are mostly throws that you can use to put the other guy on the ground without going down yourself.


Anyway...a list of good styles:

Kenpo Karate
Kajukenbo
Sambo
Muay Thai
MMA
Boxing
Submission Wrestling
Krav Maga
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu
Judo
Kyokushin Karate
Shotokan
Jeet Kune Do (but do some research on how legit the instructor is and the same goes for "American" Kenpo...you'll find some bullshit in those communities even though the styles are good."

SH is right....anything you do will help you. Find a place where you like the teacher and where you feel it's pushing you physically.


Last edited by Praying Mantis on Fri May 07, 2010 8:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martial Arts?   Thu May 06, 2010 11:52 pm

Hello,

I am, at the most optimistic appraisal, a meager martial artist. However, I have a philosophy about practical martial arts training.

Learn to do a few simple things very well and reflexively.

When the time comes, acting decisively with absolute follow-through will help you maintain the initiative and end a combat quickly.

My Miami-Dade Community College Atemi Wasa instructor told us once, "If you get in a fight and it lasts more than ten seconds, then you're probably doing it wrong."
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martial Arts?   Thu May 06, 2010 11:57 pm

Praying Mantis wrote:
It's always more effective to train at a school or dojo. The quality of the place and its instructor is more important than the style. Try looking for a school that teaches both striking and grappling. Visit several places and see which one has training that is "alive." By alive I mean training realistic scenarios against resisting opponents. I personally believe if there's no sparring at all or actual grappling for a grappling style, then you're not learning in a way that will allow you to use what you learn.

As a general rule look for styles that are based on self defense and not sport fighting. Now here's where the debates will start...real self defense moves can't be practiced exactly like you'd do them, but some combat sports like Judo, Boxing, and MMA can. Those 3 sports might not be the best actual moves to use for self defense, but the boxing guy who actually competes will usually beat the Karate guy who doesn't do full contact. It's not because boxing moves are better, it's because his training is more realistic. He's used to being hit and hitting a moving target. Grapplers do well in MMA because they can practice their art full go without killing each other.

But then there are sports centric styles that won't help you at all. Stay far, far away from a Tae Kwon Do or Karate school that is only training people for points competitions. Not all Karate and TKD schools are like that, but a LOT are. The trick is to find a school that teaches all of the nasty self defense moves and multiple opponent strategies, but practices the things that can be safely practiced through actual sparring and mat work.

If you CAN, take a traditional martial art like Kenpo Karate, Kajukenbo, or Hapkido, and then supplement it with some boxing or Judo lessons. Judo is super cheap and a good alternative to expensive BJJ classes if you want to learn ground fighting. You'll also learn how to stay on your feet. If you take MMA classes, you can become a strong fighter, but just be aware that the tactics on the street are not going to be the same. Learn how to fight on the ground, but don't take someone down on purpose on the streets. It's a good way to get your head stomped by his buddy around the corner. You also want the option to run away to remain open. This is another thing I like about Judo personally....you get a good sense of balance and the ability to stay standing. And the takedowns you learn are mostly throws that you can use to put the other guy on the ground without going down yourself.


Anyway...a list of good styles:

Kenpo Karate
Kajukenbo
Sambo
Muay Thai
Boxing
Submission Wrestling
Krav Maga
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu
Judo
Kyokushin Karate
Shotokan
Jeet Kune Do (but do some research on how legit the instructor is and the same goes for "American" Kenpo...you'll find some bullshit in those communities even though the styles are good."

SH is right....anything you do will help you. Find a place where you like the teacher and where you feel it's pushing you physically.


You forget to mention many Kung-Fu styles are really good,but that does depend on the teacher. I'm currently Peng Lai Mantis Kung Fu and my sifu is really good. We do go full contact,but we also have exercise to build strength in your bones and nerves so that you can block effectively. You also need to find a teacher that will get in there and spar with students,instead of just watching........ and I mean full contact. you listed alot of good forms of fighting but alot of them do have weaknesses and kinks in the armor as far as some things. Certain styles leave open areas to take apart opponents. I can point out what in the list has weakpoints,but the would take long.You also forgot Aikido/Aikijutsu is a formidable form considering 1 it's a form of Jiu-jitsu,but also it's a combat style. The U.S. military learns Aikido in it's line training.
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martial Arts?   Fri May 07, 2010 12:00 am

JackLighter wrote:

Learn to do a few simple things very well and reflexively.
Famous martial artist quotes are filled with that same idea. I sometimes wonder if I've gone into martial arts training overkill so that I have too much swimming around in my head. lol I'm always thinking it's good to try new things and get used to sparring people who fight in different ways, but JackLighter makes a good point about simplicity.
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martial Arts?   Fri May 07, 2010 12:25 am

Blue Phoenix wrote:

You forget to mention many Kung-Fu styles are really good,but that does depend on the teacher. I'm currently Peng Lai Mantis Kung Fu and my sifu is really good. We do go full contact,but we also have exercise to build strength in your bones and nerves so that you can block effectively. You also need to find a teacher that will get in there and spar with students,instead of just watching........ and I mean full contact. you listed alot of good forms of fighting but alot of them do have weaknesses and kinks in the armor as far as some things. Certain styles leave open areas to take apart opponents. I can point out what in the list has weakpoints,but the would take long.You also forgot Aikido/Aikijutsu is a formidable form considering 1 it's a form of Jiu-jitsu,but also it's a combat style. The U.S. military learns Aikido in it's line training.

I only listed styles that I've trained myself or have seen enough of to feel ok about recommending. The list wasn't meant to be comprehensive. Anyone that knows of others should also list some. The list isn't meant to disrespect any styles I'm not familiar with. The style of Kenpo I've trained has a lot of Chinese Kung-Fu inspired concepts so I have respect for Chinese martial arts. I definitely like anything with the term Mantis in it. Very Happy I wouldn't say "a lot of them" have weaknesses, I would say ALL of them do. I've never seen a single style without weaknesses.

Hmm...years of military experience and 14 years in martial arts and I have honestly never heard of Aikido training in the military. I'm not saying that's untrue, just saying that I've actually never heard it and that I never recognized it in Army Combatives training. But then again, I wasn't familiar with Aikido to begin with past what I've seen in Seagal movies. I noticed a LOT that looked a heck of a lot like Judo, and later learned that a lot of the current training consists of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. There's some overlap with things like Judo, BJJ, and Japanese Jujitsu though so it's not like I'd be noticing exactly what was from Aikido I guess. Or maybe it's something that only other branches incorporate into their training? I think Line training is what the Marines used to do but has been replaced. I'd have to ask Tothian about that. Anyway, I've noticed plenty of members on this forum swearing by it so it must be good. Might be something I'll want to look into myself later on.

Keep in mind when I talk about martial arts, I only talk about the aspects I know of and opinions based on personal experience. I'm hardly an authority on all styles and always a student looking to learn.
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martial Arts?   Fri May 07, 2010 5:02 am

Aikido was taught to us in the Marine Corps,during Line Training(I'm a Marine Corps Vet),I know the branches are different even though there are similarities between them.
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martial Arts?   Fri May 07, 2010 10:44 am

The trick with training is not how many different martial arts you know or how long you've trained, but how smart you train. You have to train as realistically as possible, no matter what traditional style you have learned. You have to spar at near full speed and power. Practicing techniques for gun and knife disarms is fine, but do not let yourself be hemmed in by the technique itself, become adaptable to as many different situations as you can think of. Spar with different partners of differing sizes and strengths. Also, learn to use improvised weapons. Whatever city you live in, the ground is literally littered with weapons you can use. Also, if you do get into a fight, remember that it's not like the movies; the person you are fighting may not be trying to just kick your ass, they might very well be trying to kill you. Fight dirty, and fight to win.
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martial Arts?   Fri May 07, 2010 6:54 pm

I've not seen anyone recommend escrima, which is very practical. It covers weapons, empty hand, grappling. It's very well rounded.
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martial Arts?   Fri May 07, 2010 11:14 pm

Taekwondo is practical as it teaches you how to deliver real force behind blows. When I was 16 I broke 2 bricks with a hammer-fist for my Black Belt grading. Throughout the belts you do numerous board breaking techniques, and you get much practical application of sparring too, as that is a main focus.

Shotokan is a GREAT style. It`s technique is very powerful, and straight to the point. It requires a good amount of speed as far as martial arts go, and the stances are much different than what I learned with Taekwondo; they teach very specific footwork, and body control, whereas Taekwondo can end up much more fluid. That is not to say that Karate is not fluid. It's moves link together quickly, and with much force.

Kung Fu is good too. I will soon be studying Kenpo Kung Fu, and I will reflect here after observing the Technique.
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martial Arts?   Fri May 07, 2010 11:40 pm

Praying Mantis is on the money
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martial Arts?   Sat May 08, 2010 12:32 am

Actually they do teach a lot of Aikido techniques in MCMAP.
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martial Arts?   Sat May 08, 2010 5:55 am

In Batman Begins, Batman used the Keysi Fighting Method Razz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keysi_Fighting_Method
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martial Arts?   Sat May 08, 2010 10:25 am

I have heard many good things about Aikido, Muay Thai, Krav Magna, Jiu-jitsu (and the Brazilian variant), and Judo. However, I cannot speak for any art I have not sampled and thus why I did not post my opinions on them. I have however tried MMA, and it has a good practical application of technique. It teaches you to deliver much force behind blows, and actually learn to take hits (depending on where you train). I however seen that trained martial artists in an actual traditional form tend to understand how to fight in a different way. Where I have learned, we were not taught to "Fight" like in MMA. We were taught to avoid conflict. If it were to come to combat, we were taught to strike in ares that will wound and injure the opponent, in a much different way than MMA. Many people whom do only MMA tend to knock traditional martial arts, but they forget that MMA is a sport fighting. They do not teach you to break limbs, joints, and strike in areas that would be paralyzing to be hit. The Neck is off limits in UFC, so is the groin, Kidneys, eyes, and no small joint manipulation.
But then again, like earlier stated, anything will help.

For the record, I am not advocating using Martial arts in the ways I described on someone during RLSH activities. I was trained to defend myself and my Family against attackers, and thus where my knowledge stemmed.
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martial Arts?   Sat Jul 17, 2010 7:38 am

Excellent discussion here! I feel like I got a nice shopping list of fighting styles to keep in mind.
I can relate to the budgetary concerns, too. The economy has been pretty much f#cked for about ten years now...
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martial Arts?   Sat Jul 17, 2010 8:27 pm

Prof. Midnight wrote:
I've not seen anyone recommend escrima, which is very practical. It covers weapons, empty hand, grappling. It's very well rounded.


ACES, Prof~!

I've studied escrima and it is very practical.

For a newbie, I recommend Tai Chi.
All defense.
All ruthless.

However, I must point out that working with many other people is best learned in a school
and it is best to practice with as many other people as possible.
Picking a teacher is BIG-important
and
8 years is real.
You DO create learned reflexes.
That does NOT happen quickly


Last edited by Flora V. Arbor on Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martial Arts?   Sat Jul 17, 2010 8:33 pm

Shinobi wrote:
Taekwondo is practical as it teaches you how to deliver real force behind blows. When I was 16 I broke 2 bricks with a hammer-fist for my Black Belt grading. Throughout the belts you do numerous board breaking techniques, and you get much practical application of sparring too, as that is a main focus.

Shotokan is a GREAT style. It`s technique is very powerful, and straight to the point. It requires a good amount of speed as far as martial arts go, and the stances are much different than what I learned with Taekwondo; they teach very specific footwork, and body control, whereas Taekwondo can end up much more fluid. That is not to say that Karate is not fluid. It's moves link together quickly, and with much force.

Kung Fu is good too. I will soon be studying Kenpo Kung Fu, and I will reflect here after observing the Technique.

Kung Fu is wonderful because of the circles.
Shotokan is usless for women

Linear, one-punch ain't a girl-thing.

but but but you broke with a HAMMER FIST????

DUDE!

I am wildly impressed!


Last edited by Flora V. Arbor on Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martial Arts?   Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:14 pm

Before the Army went with the MACProgram, we used LINES as well. While MACP is basically juijitsu, LINES did have a noticeable Aikido influence. Before LINES though, it was whatever style an NCO knew that would be taught in the unit as long as it could be "maatched" to moves in AR 21-150 (Combatives). Whatever style you use is based on you and how well you can absorb, corrolate and use what is given you. My fault in MACP is that I trained tooooo Long (Im old) in other styles. Im not a grappler, I punch, kick and use joint manipulation and nerve strikes, which MACP leaves to the higher levels. Yeah Im the guy the instructor is always yelling "YOU CANNOT DO THAT!!!" at in class. But they never follow through with the " One more time and we will put the gloves on" threat LOL. Hey, its combat, if you aint cheating, yer dyin.
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martial Arts?   Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:03 am

I must add,
after many years of martial arts' study
I was not using it.

...best to avoid breaking somebody's face if nicer techniques work.

Then, I started working as a landscaper.

Yes, I am a strange lady-landscaper.
( I like to work in a neighborhood until the people get used to me and stop staring )


Landscaping has allowed me to use all of my martial arts skills in ways that I never imagined.

I swing a long staff with loads of mulch for hours at a time,
bash cement into dust to make new sidewalk where there was old,
hack HARD at the earth to make the weeds LEAVE and lift bags out of the truck.

You can hit harder doing landscaping than you can during sparring
and
after a few hours you REALLY REALLY REALLY get good at being efficient
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martial Arts?   Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:33 am

Sounds like the Karate Kid method of training. All kidding aside, I look for mundane opportunities to use martial arts techniques and principles all of the time. There are many.
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martial Arts?   Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:07 pm

Agreed, Prof

but I have yet to find one as effective as landscaping.

I'd be thrilled to read yours, please
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martial Arts?   Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:33 pm

it's natural training too. . .the muscles are stronger in more realistic movements. . .

dc
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martial Arts?   Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:59 pm

I would use KOREAN Tae Kwon Do, and blend in some Judo or Kenpo. Then through some Parkour training in, imagine that. you'd be one bad a$$ MF in a fight!
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