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PostSubject: Re: RLSH - Police Shootings   2016-11-01, 00:09

I agree wholeheartedly with your analysis, Anyman, which is why I’ve always wondered and believed in the integration and merging of communities.

When you are a part of a group you view one-another based on appearance, and stereotypes. When you are a part of a team, you add traits and skills to the equation… from this, respect takes hold. When you are a part of a community or family… the bonds of love, trust, and loyalty becomes the one blood that circulates through all.

Police tend to operate as visitors, and at the most, on the ‘group’ level to this equation, when working in areas and communities different than their race, cultures, and ethnic backgrounds. This is NOT limited to white policemen.

When I grew up, I was in the gifted program, resulting in me spending most of my school years since second grade in classes in which I was often the ONLY minority. I lived two lives and learned to exist in different communities. When I first went into white classes and was around white people I was TERRIFIED! I did not trust them, I wanted get away from them, I did not understand their decision-making, or jokes… heck, I just wanted to go home.

My parents made me stay.

Over the years, my fear, anger, and misunderstanding changed. My white friends were as valuable and loved as my black, Hispanic, and Asian friends. I learned to love them equally and there were many-a-times in which we all played, fought, and feasted together. Race became a none-factor… as different cultures became fun to learn and experience.

I am from the country, and if there is one thing I found in common between the country and the city, is the migration to the singularly, so-called, ‘American’ culture is one of the most deeply fought and guarded challenges in this country.

~~~~~~~~~~

White policemen integrated into a community are often protected fiercely by those they serve. When we see them at church, shopping in the same stores, and dropping their kids off at the same schools, we consider them family… and they feel the same.

When they have a place in our family, they feel right protecting it and we feel safe with them around. Its REALLY difficult to pull your gun out a fire at someone you know by first name – they see you like their child and you view them as another parent within your community.

Currently, there are very few programs to address and support this type of policing. It is one of the topics that has been brought up by white and black organizations, but often shot down by extremist rhetoric and the constant shout for stronger 'Law & Order.’

There is NO Race war looming. There is NO organized war against cops. There IS a desperate cry from the masses for responsibility and accountability… as well as multiple communities waiting with open arms for the police to join their families with a hug.

-Omen, “Heroes aren’t made during good times.” – The Elite Forces Division
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PostSubject: Re: RLSH - Police Shootings   2016-11-01, 05:08

Police where I am are usually chosen from outside town, so their families aren't targeted for reprisal. It makes assimilation more difficult.
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PostSubject: Re: RLSH - Police Shootings   2016-11-01, 19:10

Good point Anyman. It seems like in order to overcome the availability heuristic, we do need to be aware that appearances matter--if not to us then to other people--when appearance is the only information available.

That's why it's so important for law enforcement and the community to already be familiar with each other and have a positive relationship before confrontations occur. Instead of seeing the uniform in a high stress situation and thinking of hostility, the person will think of that one police officer they know. Like Omen says, it's easier to listen to and cooperate with someone who is, or reminds you of, a member of your 'family'.
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PostSubject: Re: RLSH - Police Shootings   2016-11-01, 21:18

A contributing reason for some individuals seeing the police Uniform as a symbol of hostility is precisely because of the rise in news reports on police shootings. Why do you think these incidents have gotten so much more attention than they used to? Who do you think are the ones promoting it? Also, what business is it of ours? Isn't policing the police the job of Internal Affairs and the Government? Can we do anything other than complain about it, and does complaining about it do anything other than divide people even further? Objectively speaking, what good do reports like that do for us; what do they do, other than promote fear and hostility towards law enforcement? And why would anyone (or any group) want that?

How much have these incidents affected the racial divisions in our country? Is it for better....or for worse....and why? Not everything is always as it seems, and everyone has an agenda. 

....Things to think about. 



--204
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PostSubject: Re: RLSH - Police Shootings   2016-11-01, 21:24

I'm... not a fan of the way televised media has been handling police shootings. A free press and investigative journalism are important tools for keeping our institutions accountable, but too often they sensationalize, jump to conclusions, and generally chase ratings.
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PostSubject: Re: RLSH - Police Shootings   2016-11-01, 21:31

Indeed. All too often they're under pressure to get the story out before they have all their facts straight, and it leads to controversy such as we've seen. That's what originally made me wonder why the media even bothers making a story out of law enforcement activities when there's bigger things to worry about that actually have to do with pretty much everyone in America. The only people that the incident on Oklahoma should have affected were the people who were present and their families and possibly the neighborhood itself. It shouldn't have gone beyond that. Now the whole country is talking about it and even fighting over it. Does it really fix anything? It seems to me it just makes everything worse. 


--204
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PostSubject: Re: RLSH - Police Shootings   2016-11-02, 00:56

BECAUSE WE ARE DYING, 204.

Did you not see, read, or even Google the statistics??

Minorities are dying… they are being systematically killed by fear and ignorance.

204, you are the first person to speak, shout, and profess when it comes to your Provo Canyon situation, and yet, you lack the ability to see the struggles and suffering of others. This is the EXACT same thing, but on a national scale and over the last 100 years.

It is NOT the media.
It is NOT because all of these victims are reaching for something in their pockets.
It is NOT because they are all perps, suspects, or criminals.

Please, understand… although I know it is difficult, in order to hesitate on pulling a trigger, one must understand the consequences of its impact. Authority given to a person for policing, inherently gives them more power than that individual.

Let me put it in comic book superhero terms… “With great power comes great responsibility.”

Hence, Police are expected to be judged at a higher standard than civilians. When there is little to no accountability and/or responsibility, this pattern of ‘police brutality’ will continue.

My proposed solution is something as simple as getting Law Enforcement involved in the communities as friends. Letting them laugh with the community, share with the neighborhood, and love their people.
The media is a tool that can be brilliantly positive or disastrously negative… it depends on HOW it is used. All they truly care about is ratings – high ratings equal more money.

Positive cops can be found all over the internet, check YouTube. The people they serve LOVE them!! These guys are awesome! The children come to them when something is wrong and the elders seek their advice.
Law Enforcement is a good thing to have.

I gave an example last year as to how EASY it could have been to address the Michael Brown situation if that officer would have had a closer relationship in that community. All he would have had to do was whisper to the teenager, that he would ‘tell his Momma’ that he stole cigarettes and that situation would have ended differently.

Instead… Michael Brown was shot in the street under questionable circumstances. The heated trial resulted in yet another acquittal… and protests were launched. They were NOT launched about hating the police, it was a cohesive cry for accountability and responsibility under the umbrella of fairness.

Suppressing the news only hides the killing, as it has been for so long. Of course, the general public doesn’t want to see the ugly side of what’s REALLY going on in America.

People don’t care about gun restrictions until they are robbed and failed to use their gun against the assailant because they were scared, untrained, or had it taken from them.
People don’t care about equal Rights until something unfair happens to them.
People don’t care about unfair police treatment, until a cop gives them a ticket for something petty and talks down to them in a manner they’ve never heard.

Yes, all of this is the real world… but it doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t fight, hope, or strive for something better – or better yet, something equal.

After all, isn’t it our Right?

-Omen
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PostSubject: Re: RLSH - Police Shootings   2016-11-02, 06:29

I know where you're coming from, but the Police aren't supposed to be our friends. I don't feel they'd be able to be as objective if they were close, thus opening the doors up for police corruption (or further corruption, if it's already corrupt). Starts out as just being friendly. Then it leads to having them over to dinner, then maybe over for Christmas parties and Birthdays; might even get to the point where you'd trust them to watch your kids for a weekend because you and the cop have grown so close; you're now in a much better position to manipulate him; maybe just ask for a little favor, look past just one speeding ticket. Now....if he's just as friendly with everyone else in the neighborhood as he is with you... and as you think you want him to be...I wonder how many other speeding tickets or little misdemeanors he's decided to look past, because he was a friend of the family...and was therefore acting like a friend of the family....not a police officer. God forbid one of those little misdemeanors wasn't your teenagers first faltering steps on a long lifetime criminal career. A police officer being a friend instead of an agent of the law just might end up getting someone's daughter to start thinking she can get away with sneaking out and drinking with her boyfriend all night, until one night she doesn't come home because her drunken boyfriend wrapped their car around a tree. Trust me...you don't want the police to be friends of the city. They have a job to do; let them do it. Also, there's nothing we the people can do to make the cops decide to be our friends instead of the strong arm of the law, nor do I feel we should even entertain such thoughts. ....Please tell me you can at least see a little bit where I'm coming from? I know it might sound complicated on the outset....but in my mind, it's pretty simple and clear as day. 

And yes, I have been paying attention to the statistics, and I did follow the Michael Brown case closely. ....Hope you won't fly off the handle when I post some links instead of typing everything out in my own words; it's 1:14AM in the morning here, and I'm tired. 

http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler#

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/zorn/ct-ferguson-brown-wilson-hands-up-shoot-holder-usdoj-perspec-0320-jm-20150319-column.html

http://www.copinthehood.com/2015/03/doj-on-michael-brown-shooting-justified.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/03/19/hands-up-dont-shoot-did-not-happen-in-ferguson/

http://www.breitbart.com/big-journalism/2015/03/04/witnesses-to-michael-brown-shooting-feared-contradicting-hands-up-dont-shoot-narrative/

http://www.thepoliticalinsider.com/breaking-new-forensic-evidence-game-changer-mike-brown-officer-darren-wilson-case/


Also, please try to recognize that I blend the DVR on the television with news programs from both Fox News as well as others such as CNN, ABC, and CBS because a while back I developed a curiosity about what's being fed to the people through different news outlets. Perhaps you should try it too? *shrugs*

To each their own. If you're confident in your conclusions and assessment of things, then my opinion should be irrelevant....oh well. Gonna try to catch some Zzzzss.


--204
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PostSubject: Re: RLSH - Police Shootings   2016-11-02, 13:23

Uhm… Breitbart and Dailywire are WELL known biased and racist online news sites, 204. This is why Ben Shapiro (owner of Dailywire) presented it as privately owned; it was meant to be an extension of his personal opinions. Breitbart is just flat out nuts.

Listen, you and I are going in circles. You are fighting tooth-and-nail to adhere to the political-Right and viewing it as Conservativism while I am approaching things from the larger picture of us coming together as one people.

I am not interested in whether or not Michael Brown’s hands were up or how, as you described, ‘ghetto’ someone sounded when speaking to the police. I want to address the lack of in-depth or decision-making when it comes to dealing with unarmed minorities. While the media has no excuse, we know they are simply chasing ratings.

No matter how you struggle to bring up these justifications, NONE of them address the proactive decision-making processes of those that hold authorized power which can legally take life, nor the lack of balanced accountability or responsibility that has been widely disregarded.

Stealing cigarette should not result in death.
Being broke down beside a road should not result in death.
Having a tail light out, should not result in death.
Changing lanes without a signal, should not result in death.
Purchasing a toy gun in Walmart while talking on the phone, should not result in death.
Playing your music loud, should not result in death.
Standing outside of a store with two friends should not result in death.
Trying to tell the police you are legally carrying a concealed weapon, should not result in death.
This list goes on, and on…

Overall, the police are not bad. In any group, there are always bad apples as well as there are always those that fall to their deepest fears and shallow thoughts. My point is that, while both of these aspects are painfully real, they can be solved by getting to know those you serve.

If a waiter gives a patron great service, that patron will think highly of the restaurant and seek that waiter out when they return. Police are public servants. They are not torturers and, executioners. They are there to protect citizens and defend the law. They are not there to interpret the law or sentence a suspect.

It is not bad to be friends with a local officer. It is not terrible if a policeman brings an old lady a bagel for breakfast. It does not make him weak or soft to join a pickup basketball game with the local boys or to sit on a front porch with a group a girls to learn how to comb the hair on their dolls. In fact, these are ‘human’ things to do.

A police officer SHOULDN’T want to give out a ton of tickets or care about arresting a certain number of people per month… instead, he should be judged by how well the community responds and how safe they feel with one-another, as well as him.

It IS very much possible to be nice, liked, and professional… all at once.

-Omen, “Heroes aren’t made during good times.” – The Elite Forces Division
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PostSubject: Re: RLSH - Police Shootings   2016-11-02, 18:59

This isn't about politics for me. I just feel that cops should be cops, not buddies, because that's how the doors for corruption open up. 

Can you provide evidence of their racism? Or are you jumping to conclusions? I'd think if it was well known, that I'd probably know about it. But truly, I wasn't actually paying much attention; I remembered how the story went from the news channels, and it looked accurate enough, and it was past the middle of the night, and I was sleep deprived. 

I don't mean to go in circles with you. It's just frustrating that every post of yours towards me seems to be hostile, causing me to feel like I need to put my view in a different way as to not offend you, but everything seems to offend you. There's no finding level ground with you. You keep trying to make this about race and politics while talking about the problem of police corruption, and things just simply aren't that black and white.....no pun intended whatsoever.

As Anyman stated, there are simply too many variables throughout all the incidents to say that they're all because of any one thing in particular, and it seems you're trying to make it out like the only reason there's police corruption is because of Racists lol. It just doesn't make sense to me, and I'm willing to bet it doesn't make much sense to many others either. 

Yes, it's possible to be nice, liked, and professional. But I don't think it's possible to be a "close friend" and a cop at the same time, and I feel that it is a dangerous idea; it's NOT the police's job to be our friends, and there's nothing you or I can ever do to change that. They are primarily a post-event response tasked with enforcing law and order. It's a dangerous job. They can't take unnecessary risks or leave things to chance. Yes, they should try to go less lethal first. No, it's not wrong for them to shoot a criminal who they fear is going for a gun to shoot them with; that's their legal right. If you don't like that law, then go to Capital Hill with a posse and start lobbying. You'll experience a lot of pushback from Democrats though, because it's a proven fact that their party was founded on racism. 

Can we stop talking about this now? This isn't going anywhere. You just demonstrated yet again that you don't care about our opinions; you want us to have your opinions, and you think that anyone who doesn't share your sentiment is wrong. Maybe that's not the case, but it's how I feel you're coming off as. If you didn't yell so much and bring race into it so much, chances are it would be easier. Instead it comes off as sounding like racist anti-police rhetoric aimed at causing division, drama and fighting. Try a different approach is all I'm saying. 

Take a deep breath, slow down, and think before sending an immediate response. I've found for myself that doing that makes me sound a lot less angry than I really am, which makes people more susceptible to understanding where I'm coming from.

PS: Yes, I agree; a police officer shouldn't want to give out a ton of tickets or care about arresting a certain number of people per month. But that's their job. They have to do it. And it would be much harder if they were close to those people, which would result in less people getting arrested, including a good number who actually probably should have been arrested. Wouldn't it be hard for you to arrest your best friend? Sure, you could do it if you forced yourself to, but it would feel bad, and it would cause a lot of tension. You can see that, can't you? o.O

Let cops be cops. Keep an eye out for the bad cops. Make sure they get kicked off the force. That's how we can make changes. Not by somehow seducing the law into being our friends instead of the hardasses we need them to be. Trust me, I practically grew up in mental institutions; I actually kinda know a thing or two abut psychology and sociology and how this little suggestion of yours would end up turning out.


--204
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PostSubject: Re: RLSH - Police Shootings   2016-11-03, 21:46

Two Oh Four wrote:
Yes, it's possible to be nice, liked, and professional. But I don't think it's possible to be a "close friend" and a cop at the same time, and I feel that it is a dangerous idea; it's NOT the police's job to be our friends, and there's nothing you or I can ever do to change that.

[...]

PS: Yes, I agree; a police officer shouldn't want to give out a ton of tickets or care about arresting a certain number of people per month. But that's their job. They have to do it. And it would be much harder if they were close to those people, which would result in less people getting arrested, including a good number who actually probably should have been arrested. Wouldn't it be hard for you to arrest your best friend? Sure, you could do it if you forced yourself to, but it would feel bad, and it would cause a lot of tension. You can see that, can't you? o.O

Let cops be cops. Keep an eye out for the bad cops. Make sure they get kicked off the force. That's how we can make changes. Not by somehow seducing the law into being our friends instead of the hardasses we need them to be.

Typically when I heard the phrase "it's not my job to be your friend" growing up, it was coming from someone like a parent or a teacher. Someone who was responsible for me, and who cared enough about me to let me be mad at them for a few days. Because, oddly enough, that's what a real friend does. They do what's best for you even if it means you like them less or don't consider them to be YOUR friend for a while, even though they're going to great pains and enduring your yelling or cold shoulder to show you're still THEIR friend.

Real friends help us own up to our mistakes, not get out of the consequences for them. Granted, a cop doesn't have to be dumb about the tension--a pretty common question in police interview panels is, "would you arrest your best friend for driving drunk?" Or, you know, something along those lines. The correct answer is basically "I would keep my friend there and call a supervisor so someone else could make the arrest and booking. Hopefully my best friend and I are good enough friends and know each other well enough for our friendship to survive it".
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PostSubject: Re: RLSH - Police Shootings   2016-11-03, 22:39

Very few people, (if any) have that kind of....fortitude? Not sure if that's the right word. But yeah, that WOULD be the correct answer, but chances are, anyone giving it is probably lying (possibly to themselves as well). 

Totally agree though that the saying "it's not my job to be your friend" is usually something that comes from a parent or a teacher. That's precisely my point! Parents and teachers are authority figures, and it's their job to protect you. They can be friendly, but they definitely aren't your buddies down at the bar. Nor are Police Officers. The only level of "friendly" I'm personally comfortable with a police officer showing, is effectively the same thing as showing common courtesy and respect. By and large, police officers express this same kind of demeanor. But it shouldn't be confused with them being your friend. 

"Friend" is a pretty powerful word for me.....there's an old saying that goes something like "Friends help you move. REAL friends help you move BODIES." XD


--204
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PostSubject: Re: RLSH - Police Shootings   2016-11-04, 04:05

Uhm… okay… let’s, uh, change the conversation to exploring the differences between ‘friends’ and ‘professional courtesy’. I guess that’s, uhm, something to have issue with?

I do agree with you, 204, on common courtesy and respect.


When I served, we went into some tough areas and played ball with the locals. I never lost my professionalism, but I did gain respect by being relatable. The elders described us as, ‘approachable’.

At work, a boss can order morning bagels for his staff, uh… I’m not sure if this crosses your line on ‘being too friendly’, but it garnishes admiration from his team.

When the local firemen show up at a Girl Scout cookie drive and hang out with the girls, many see it as inspiring, but I figure that this must be extreme according to what you are stating.

Your comments are not concerns to ignore, in fact, they are very worthwhile for discussions of ‘lessons-learned’ but this goes back to the ‘bad apples’ theory – there will always be one in the barrel.

It’s as simple as this…

When I was in uniform, my oath to this nation and my mission was clear. I could go into an area, respect the residents, speak with them, have fun with the kids, participate in events, and believe it or not, I went to multiple churches and sat in the midst of many different religions and beliefs. Not once did I EVER lose focus of my oath and my mission… not once.

I will say, you are correct that getting too close can happen, because I do remember having a conversation with one of my comrades, who was questioning what we were doing. He ended up becoming a ‘Conscientious Objector’ and got out of the Marine Corps.

I cannot deny the 'closeness' factor, but it is NOT enough for me to ignore the powerful positive impact our actions created in the community. We lost a Marine because of love, not a ‘bad shoot’ of an unarmed suspect – he was simply, in-love with someone from the community.

Properly trained Police are professionals. Properly lead Police are true. I am one of those that simply believe in an oath taken, and believe in the mission surrounding the authority of those granted the powers of the badge.

I am fundamentally a man of conviction which is what first drew me to this forum and the Real Life Super Hero movement. I have never claimed to be a hero, but I have always been a fan of those here who were trying to be.

In fact, in every post I comment on, I always struggle to remind our readers as to where they are… as to what this community is about. It is about being a HERO. It is about having hope and striving to see the bright side of some of the darkest issues out there. I try to propose solutions and have debates exploring both sides of a problem as we dig beyond the symptoms to discover the source.

I have confidence in Police integrating into the community, the entire neighborhood would grow stronger. They do not have to be the type of ‘friends’ you are worried about, but the friends that are professional enough and courteous enough to inspire the youth looking up to them… which will happen to become the next generation.

-Omen, “Heroes aren’t made during good times.” – The Elite Forces Division
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PostSubject: Re: RLSH - Police Shootings   2016-11-04, 16:05

Ah, very well said. I see what you mean now. Thanks for clarifying.
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PostSubject: Re: RLSH - Police Shootings   2016-11-10, 13:01

A good common point that continues to come up, is the role of liking. Each of you have stated it in different words, but the sentiment is the same: to earn the trust of the community, it's important to be respected, and even liked; the key to that is opening up to others, and showing enough trust in them to show them a vulnerable part of your life, and who you are. Even if they can't relate, they will appreciate the trust, and they might even open up to you, too. Many modern self-defense experts use the wolf/sheep/dog model, to explain the differences in personality between predators, prey, and protectors. Some protectors don't earn trust, which makes their job harder; others do earn the trust of their protectorate, and even if they don't understand them, they still trust, and even like them
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PostSubject: Re: RLSH - Police Shootings   2016-11-12, 00:24

The following comments are not legal advice and I am not an attorney so do not rely on these words for legal matters of any kind: 

When police use force against a citizen (or any person under Constitutional protection) the 4th Amendment protection against unreasonable seizure is often invoked in an ensuing lawsuit. The police have qualified immunity. This means that under most circumstances they cannot be sued for doing their job. To defeat this immunity, a plaintiff must show that the force was unreasonable. The test for reasonability is "totality of circumstances." This means that when all factors are considered the amount of force used would be reasonable (one level up the force continuum from the force of the detainee) to defeat the force used against the officer. So if a 300lb fit man is acting belligerent to a female officer, this will require a different level of force than if a 225lb fit male officer is dealing with a compliant yet agitated 160lb male. In these cases, there may be a Compliant of Civil Violation under 42 USC Section 1983. To prevail you must prove the officer was acting under color of law, and that a Civil Right was violated. Under color of law means they were acting with the authority of the state. An officer who arrives in uniform is usually presumed to fulfill this element. Proving the CR violation is trickier. I won't get into that. 

As for what can be done to quell shootings, it is certain that police need better training concerning use of proper force and the force continuum. Citizens need to obey police orders precisely, and without argument.

Yes, I have experience and training in this area. I have legal training and have trained at my state's official police training facilities.
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PostSubject: Re: RLSH - Police Shootings   2016-11-12, 00:28

Also, although an officer may take into account the physical attributes of the detainee, the US Supreme Court has ruled that the reputation of the neighborhood is not consisered a justification for excessive force. It unfairly discriminates against those who cannot afford nice homes.
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