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 Dodging and Fighting from Range

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arrowdynamic



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PostSubject: Dodging and Fighting from Range   Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:20 pm

Dodging is a useful skill. How to you train this skill? If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a throwing knife.
I'm not saying you can dodge bullets, but with training you can be better prepared to jump for cover, and to move out of the way of dangerous blows.
Fighting hand to hand is different to fighting from ranges.
When in a melee fight a good fighter can control the distance of the engagement, and use his footwork to lead his opponent into strikes.
This is how a good melee fighter "dodges" strikes. While you can train your reflexes to slip and dodge punches and kicks, that kind of reaction is more of a last resort than something you can rely upon like distance control.

In a ranged fight this is completely different. You cannot determine the range of combat because only the power and range of the weapon can determine whether or not you are in range. Simply stepping in and out of range is impossible.

So, say that I were in an archery battle with some modern archer. I would have to rely on my gut to tell me if I am in range or not. I also have to know my reaction time to move out of the way.

For example lets say me and another archer are firing arrows at each other from a larger distance of 100m away, that's 328 feet.
Let's say we are both using recurve bows. These weapons generally have a max speed of 200 feet per second.
In order to dodge from this range, then, one only has to move (assuming proper aim which from 100m is a stretch in itself) within 1.64 seconds.
Any human can dodge this quickly.
If I take my average reaction time, which can be trained by the way, by reacting to a stimulus over and over, which is about 270 to 320 milliseconds that means that once I start moving I still have around 1.34 seconds to get out of the way.

So I would wager a duel from 100m would be very long and possibly come down to who has more arrows in their quiver (or who tricks their opponent first).

if we cut our engagement to 25m, or 82 feet, it becomes entirely different. The travel time of the projectile is now 0.41 seconds. In order to dodge this one has to react to the shot, and then move in this timeframe.

I'm going to flat out say that 150 milliseconds is around peak human reaction time. I am considerably slower.
It is important to note that although you may react before the projectile hits you, you still need to get out of the way. Movement takes place in time, therefore you need to practice moving.
So lets say I am aware an arrow is moving towards me. It took me 300 miliseconds to notice this I have 110 more milliseconds to move. This is a small amount of time. Its not impossible, but I would say typically moving out of the path of a projectile, depending on where it is aimed at your body, takes 150-300 milliseconds in addition to your reaction time.

So while with a lot of practice skilled archer may be able to shoot and dodge each others arrows from 25m away, they would have to be incredibly quick. With a gun it would be impossible, imo, from any range less than 100m, and even at that range, you wouldn't be able to see the shooter pulling the trigger. So how do you get advanced warning of incoming shots? I suggest hearing enhancement and ducking for cover when you hear the slide pull back.

Now this is all mathematical speculation. I do not suggest anyone goes and shoots arrows at their friends to practice dodging.

But if you do want to go that route you can get cushioned arrows that still travel at 75-125 fps and impact safely.

To practice dodging gunfire (I like to practice close range disarms this way) you can use a Nerf gun (which has muzzle velocities of around 100ish fps) or an airsoft gun (much faster) with goggles.
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Anyman

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PostSubject: Re: Dodging and Fighting from Range   Fri Oct 10, 2014 2:43 am

Dodging gunfire is called sheer dumb luck. Nobody can dodge a bullet, traveling at 1,500 feet per second (a lot of times, faster), between the size of a battery and a small tube of chapstik.
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PostSubject: Re: Dodging and Fighting from Range   Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:28 am

You'd have to watch his trigger finger and move at just the right moment before. Or you could avoid all that and practice the second amendment. Remember the arabian scimitar wielder from Indiana Jones? Loved that scene XD
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Discordia

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PostSubject: Re: Dodging and Fighting from Range   Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:48 am

Experimentation!

http://mythbustersresults.com/dodge-a-bullet

"It is possible to dodge a bullet if the shooter is far enough away the target.
BUSTED
Adam and Jamie called in a U.S. Army sniper for some preliminary tests to measure the time it took for a bullet to reach its target. After some failed attempts, they obtained travel times of 231, 597, and 1791 ms for distances of 200, 500, and 1,200 yd (180, 460, and 1,100 m), respectively. Next, the pair did some workshop tests to find how quickly they could dodge a shot, using a camera flash to simulate the muzzle flash. Jamie proved slightly faster, dodging in 490 ms; based on this result, he and Adam calculated that the shooter would have to be at least 400 yd (366 m) away.

They then watched Dave fire standard blank cartridges from various distances and found that they could not see his muzzle flash at all past 200 yd (183 m). When he switched to Hollywood-style blanks with much heavier gunpowder loads, they could easily see the flash out to 1,200 yd (1,097 m). Finally, they set up a blank-firing rifle at 200 yards, wired to a timer and paintball gun; when one man pulled the trigger, a paintball would be fired directly at the other’s chest after 231 ms. Neither was able to dodge any shots until the rifle was moved to 500 yd (457 m) (600 ms delay) and loaded with Hollywood blanks. Adam and Jamie declared the myth busted, since an actual sniper would take precautions to ensure that the target would not see the muzzle flash."

Watching the whole episode was also quite cool. Season 9, Episode 8 if anyone's interested.
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Gauge



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PostSubject: Re: Dodging and Fighting from Range   Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:50 am

That scene was ad lib by Harrison Ford, because he forgot his actual line. It was, like many who fire unnecessarily, a knee-jerk reaction to not knowing what to do. Good example 204!
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Gauge



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PostSubject: Re: Dodging and Fighting from Range   Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:52 am

That scene was ad lib by Harrison Ford, because he forgot his actual line. It was, like many who fire unnecessarily, a knee-jerk reaction to not knowing what to do. Good example 204!
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PostSubject: Re: Dodging and Fighting from Range   Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:15 pm

It's Hero Man, and if you do not know what to do about a swordsman who wants to kill you, I feel you should do what you can do. I think it's smart to shoot him before he gets close enough to lop your head off. It's legal. Lethal force is justified when psychopaths threaten your life; they made the choice to throw aaway regard for your life and those around you, if you can stop him without hurting him, great, more power to you, but I do not know how to disarm a scimitar, so I would shoot him when he made it clear he wants to use it on me. Should I do nothing at all and let him kill me because I didn't know how to safely take his giant sword away?
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arrowdynamic



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PostSubject: Re: Dodging and Fighting from Range   Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:17 pm

I'm sorry but adam and Jamie from mythbusters are not exactly well trained dodgers. Should have got professional dodgeball players to test the myth.

and dodging based off the muzzle flash is stupid, that means you aren't moving until the gun is fired. You need to be moving out of the shooters aim as soon as he or she points a gun at you.

Also note in my post I comment on dodging bullets. I say that the best thing to do is duck for cover as soon as you hear the safety disengage.

You can get hunting headphones that give you 10-20x hearing enhancement while also shielding our ears from loud bangs like gunshots.
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Gauge



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PostSubject: Re: Dodging and Fighting from Range   Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:04 am

You won't likely hear the safety being flipped, depending on your distance and surrounding noises. Also, many guns now have a pressure pad safety, which you wouldn't hear at all.
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Gauge



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PostSubject: Re: Dodging and Fighting from Range   Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:12 am

And honestly, except for Anyman's post, all this advice on dodging bullets is obviously coming from people who have never been shot at. You won't hear the safety or see his trigger finger move. Your best bet is to find cover, some object which will shield your entire body and the bullet cannot penetrate. Then hightail it out when the opportunity presents. Otherwise, dodging is about anticipation and commitment. If an object is thrown, dodging is simple. You wait for a physical commitment from the thrower. If it's a gun, you anticipate the shot and get out of the line of fire. If you look at anything, look down the barrel. If you can't see straight down it, you likely won't get hit (depending on range)
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PostSubject: Re: Dodging and Fighting from Range   Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:13 am

I could be a good idea to learn how to make yourself hard to hit. Where to take cover. And eat lunch.
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arrowdynamic



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PostSubject: Re: Dodging and Fighting from Range   Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:57 am

Gauge wrote:
You won't likely hear the safety being flipped, depending on your distance and surrounding noises. Also, many guns now have a pressure pad safety, which you wouldn't hear at all.
which is why I recommend hearing enhancement, something like...
http://www.amazon.com/GSM-Outdoors-Walkers-Power-Muffs/dp/B00J2DLM1C/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&qid=1413381346&sr=8-13&keywords=walkers+hearing+enhancement

so you hear even the tiniest of noises.
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Anyman

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PostSubject: Re: Dodging and Fighting from Range   Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:56 pm

To be fair, the advice given above was actually from a known acquaintance, who has been shot at in combat; not personal experience.
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arrowdynamic



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PostSubject: Re: Dodging and Fighting from Range   Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:32 pm

I know most will focus on dodging bullets because its with the superhero motif... but more often people will be throwing rocks, chairs, glasses, sticks etc etc at you.

This is more what dodging is for.

I was simply doing some scientific explanation
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Shade



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PostSubject: Re: Dodging and Fighting from Range   Fri Jan 30, 2015 3:22 pm

Expanding on Gauge's comments, above:

If there are bullets or other projectiles flying through the air you want cover. You're not Batman, you're not The Phantom, you can't suck up bullets or a brick to the face and keep swinging. Cover is one of two types;

Soft cover - Something which obscures you from line of sight but won't stop projectiles (i.e. drywall, opaque glass, cardboard)

Hard cover - Anything that BOTH hides you from line of sight AND can reasonably be counted on to stop whatever is flying at you (i.e. thick walls of brick or concrete, a bus, a dumpster).

Ideally you'll want to hide behind hard cover, if you can't, get behind soft cover and try to stay as low as you can. If you have to move, stay low.

This is what I learnt travelling, anyway.
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arrowdynamic



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PostSubject: Re: Dodging and Fighting from Range   Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:37 am

or you could dodge their rock, close the distance and neutralize the threat.
but drywall could probably stop most things people would throw at you anyways
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Shade



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PostSubject: Re: Dodging and Fighting from Range   Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:42 am

arrowdynamic wrote:

...drywall could probably stop most things people would throw at you anyways

I don't know about that - I've seen objects hurled with enough force to pulverize it (had my head rammed through it, too). Maybe it would be like a one-hit-wonder, stopping the first chunk of concrete but not the second. I can't really afford the drywall for penetration experiments myself :-)
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Gauge



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PostSubject: Re: Dodging and Fighting from Range   Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:20 am

And hearing technology will not help you determine when a gun safety is disengaged. If the gun is pointed at you, it's disengaged! And it may not have been engaged to begin with, so there may be nothing to hear.
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arrowdynamic



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PostSubject: Re: Dodging and Fighting from Range   Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:32 am

only a fool would put their gun in their holster unlocked.
that said I know there are many fools out there, but considering most of those thugs shove their guns in their crotches I'd imagine they'd be smart enough to at least have their safeties on.

still, your logic is sound. But I still think hearing enhancement can be a valuable tool, for overhearing drug deals, hearing someone sneak up on you, etc.
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PostSubject: Re: Dodging and Fighting from Range   Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:31 pm

Hearing enhancement probably deserves it's own thread. Suffice it to say, you would need to add some kind of AVLS (Automatic Volume Limiting System) like the expensive Discmans used to have, so if you've amp'd all the way up to listen in on two shady characters down an alley and a car backfires, you won't lose hearing.
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PostSubject: Re: Dodging and Fighting from Range   Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:51 pm

Archery is a terrible analogy for modern combat.

Now bottles, rocks, yeah you should be able to dodge that stuff.

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arrowdynamic



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PostSubject: Re: Dodging and Fighting from Range   Sat Feb 14, 2015 12:27 pm

many people have bows, its not impossible that you would come across somebody armed with one.
That said the bow is my weapon of choice which is why I described it that way. Of course generally I am unarmed.

but yeah, played a training game yesterday to test reflexes where someone would stand and another would throw darts (nerf darts, but they fly quickly) and they had to be either dodged or caught.

fun game for testing reflexes. Dodgeball is good as well but you need a big group and often a referee.
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PostSubject: Re: Dodging and Fighting from Range   Sat Feb 14, 2015 12:38 pm

Oh yeah, I come across lots of people with bows.

At the archery range, or a renaissance fair.

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PostSubject: Re: Dodging and Fighting from Range   Sat Feb 14, 2015 12:40 pm

off to the batting cages to hone my reflexes!
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arrowdynamic



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PostSubject: Re: Dodging and Fighting from Range   Sat Feb 14, 2015 1:47 pm

Urban Avenger wrote:
Oh yeah, I come across lots of people with bows.

At the archery range, or a renaissance fair.
like 30% of hunters use bows here
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