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 Baton, club, and bat training

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GreyWolf



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PostSubject: Baton, club, and bat training   Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:16 pm

As per training for anyone with a club or baton, individuals should look into the SCA. Or Society for Creative Anachronism. There are local groups all over the country.

This society has events which are an amalgam of LARP and historical reenactment. The weapons that they use are rattan interpretations of historical weaponry. In other words, a wooden club. The techniques are incredibly effective, and are very surprising in their versatility and power.

If not going that route, I would suggest looking into escrima, a phillippine stick fighting style. Very effective at incapacitating opponents
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Anyman

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PostSubject: Re: Baton, club, and bat training   Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:50 am

Plenty of good resources for short polearm and club training, including escrima/kali, certain Japanese martial arts, Chinese martial arts, Karate (of course, they have the tonfa, among other weapons), and even Defendu, which focuses on blades, short polearms and clubs.
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Adsum



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PostSubject: Re: Baton, club, and bat training   Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:46 am

This is actually something I have wondered about as well. It's hard to find places that will give you this kind of training without giving you non-weapon training first. I personally plan to carry a collapsible baton, and most of what I've been learning has been youtube videos, but that only teaches you so much. I'm not comfortable enough to carry the baton regularly yet as I know, I will meet the guy who knows better and end up getting beat with my own baton haha.
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GreyWolf



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PostSubject: Re: Baton, club, and bat training   Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:14 pm

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Find a local group, ask about loaner gear, learn!
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Cornelius Brunner

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PostSubject: Re: Baton, club, and bat training   Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:17 pm

I'd recommend the Dog Brothers. Their style of stick fighting is the most pressure-tested outside of Africa. 
Also, they practise stick-grappling, so they learn to restrain an opponent with the stick as well as tenderising them.
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Cornelius Brunner

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PostSubject: Re: Baton, club, and bat training   Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:55 pm

Found a book on using a pimp stick.
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Otherwise, there's Gene LeBell's "Grappling With A Club", Massad Ayoob's "Modern Police Impact Weapons", Dan Inosanto's "The Filipino Martial Arts" and Masaaki Hatsumi's "Stick Fighting For Self Defence".

LAPD cocobolo 1954


LAPD cocobolo 1963
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Urban Avenger

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PostSubject: Re: Baton, club, and bat training   Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:41 pm

Good stuff.

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Cornelius Brunner

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PostSubject: Re: Baton, club, and bat training   Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:34 am

Rex Applegate's "Kill Or Get Killed", at least the post-war edition, has a good chapter on baton and riot stick, with some come-along holds. I had some trouble finding the right edition with the police techniques as well as the military ones, and then I had to find one where the baton section wasn't corrupted, but finally Yudu had it.
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Nutnfancy's baton videos.

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Sage

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PostSubject: Re: Baton, club, and bat training   Sat Sep 12, 2015 7:49 am

Interesting stuff, Cornelius!  Thanks for posting those videos.

One thing that stuck out in the first video was the cameraman asking, "Have either of you ever used that on duty?"  To which they both answered, "No."  It sort of brings up the idea that maybe a lot of that is a bit too complicated for real-life fights.  Not that I'm an escrima expert or anything.  But in my studies of Jeet Kune Do philosophy, I've learned that the more complicated the move, the more likely it is to fail.

I like the foot work though.  That's something that never occurred to me.  I also like that he addressed the fact that if you can't do the fundamental hits (the 1 and 2 as he described it, or the X hit as the cameraman said) then nothing else really counts.

Good stuff, considering I've wanted to specialize in escrima or bo staff.  Haven't watched the second video yet, but I'll comment on that later I suppose.
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Cornelius Brunner

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PostSubject: Re: Baton, club, and bat training   Wed Sep 16, 2015 2:30 pm

Here's a short article on the Fairbairn method of stick fighting, which you can see is the origin of the drill being taught in that first baton training film.

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Idea Man

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PostSubject: Re: Baton, club, and bat training   Sat Dec 19, 2015 1:51 am

I am interested in learning to properly wield a telescoping baton.  I figured that there would be at least one thread with some useful information on this forum.   Smile
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Jarvis_AI

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PostSubject: Re: Baton, club, and bat training   Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:40 pm

Well, does anyone has any advice for a Bataireacht [also known as Shillelagh, even if this is an incorrect term] practictioner? Or where to get a collapsible baton in Europe?
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Cornelius Brunner

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PostSubject: Re: Baton, club, and bat training   Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:26 am

All I know about Irish stickfighting that might be useful is that the techniques are meant to be used with a blackthorn stick, so some of the blocks only make sense when you remember they're meant to catch the opponent's weapon on the spikes.

Odd style, though. I've never seen another style where you hold the stick with both hands in the middle and lash out with a one-handed backhand like that. I guess it's deceptive.
You hold the blocking stick in the center with one hand in Zulu stickfighting, but that's only used defensively.

There's some brutal Irish bareknuckle boxing out there, right up there with Gypsy boxing, Russian Stenka na Stenku, and Australian tent boxing, IMO.

There's also some Jeet Kune Do and some crazy style supposedly descended from Roman legionary tactics...
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Jarvis_AI

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PostSubject: Re: Baton, club, and bat training   Tue Aug 30, 2016 4:21 am

Thanks. I have a few basics of Shillelagh that my mom [she's irish] taught me, but we used to practice it with an oaken rod. Blackthorn is impossible to get where we live, and was hoping to mix it up with other stick-fighting styles. So, Zulu is one I should probably check out, no?
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Cornelius Brunner

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PostSubject: Re: Baton, club, and bat training   Wed Aug 31, 2016 6:34 am

Eh, it requires two sticks, one with a shield in the middle or at least a towel wrapped around it to protect your knuckles. The Ethiopian style is probably more practical, but both are duelling/sporting styles, and IMO not practical for self-defence or street fighting. 

My best advice is still the Filipino derivatives, European singlestick, and Gene LeBell's techniques for grappling with a club.  
Niten Ichi Ryu is probably the most effective kendo style for actually fighting with a bokken, as opposed to just training with it.
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Jarvis_AI

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PostSubject: Re: Baton, club, and bat training   Wed Aug 31, 2016 3:11 pm

Ethiopian style? Gotcha.....I'll have to research on it. As for two sticks, I actualy prefere it. Left for defense, right for "offence". This is more of a "backup" though....crime arround my place tends to run off when they see people roaming, luckily.

Niten Ichi Ryu isen't that style featured in Gengi: Days of the Blade?
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Cornelius Brunner

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PostSubject: Re: Baton, club, and bat training   Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:30 am

Probably not, Genji was based on The Tale of the Heike, and Niten was Miyamoto Musashi's style. 
Other kenjutsu styles use the bokken and shinei to train for the sword, but Musashi won half his duels with bokken.
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Anyman

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PostSubject: Re: Baton, club, and bat training   Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:39 am

Another good resource, if you can find a decent English translation, is a manuscript known as DiGrassi's "True Arte of Self Defence". It covers the use of multiple types of weapons, some of which are rarely, if ever, used today, but the mechanics of which may still be applicable.
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Cornelius Brunner

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PostSubject: Re: Baton, club, and bat training   Fri Sep 02, 2016 9:52 am

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Jarvis_AI

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PostSubject: Re: Baton, club, and bat training   Fri Sep 02, 2016 10:18 am

Thank you, Cornelius for the links, and Anyman for the suggestion. Those are some powerfull blows there, they vaguely remind me of a documentary I saw a few years ago about the style of fighting used by Robert Downey Jr in his version of Sherlock Holms, which was actualy based on Swiss Umbrella Fencing. The use of cloacks and hats as diversion is staple from it. Usefull to cause confusion and take down the opponent.
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Cornelius Brunner

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PostSubject: Re: Baton, club, and bat training   Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:03 am

Oh yeah, Sherlock Holmes used "Baritsu" in the stories, which was based on "Bartitsu", which was a Victorian MMA based on Jiu-Jitsu, boxing, catch-as-catch-can wrestling, savate, and singlestick.
The movies' version more reflected the director, Guy Ritchie's, background in BJJ, and Robert Downey Jr's background in Wing Chun, although the second film had more moves from the old manuals.

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Jarvis_AI

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PostSubject: Re: Baton, club, and bat training   Sat Sep 03, 2016 7:41 pm

Oh man, I've been looking everywhere for that! Thanks! My main combat training is Judo-oriented, with a trick of two of baseline Kung Fu. This will greatly improve my chances at a possible fist-fight.

Any idea on the best materials to make home made batons?
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Cornelius Brunner

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PostSubject: Re: Baton, club, and bat training   Sun Sep 04, 2016 5:15 am

I've heard rattan/malacca for training, and kamagong, bahi, or oak for fighting. The proper blackthorn for fighting is cut in winter, while the sap is frozen. Bartitsu canes are rattan, but with a steel ball head that turns it into a mace. The strongest rattan is supposed to have the most nodes.
You can also use a little linseed oil to stop it cracking, or duct tape for a grip, or use a plastic coating to protect it.
Here's some tricks you might find useful.
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Jarvis_AI

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PostSubject: Re: Baton, club, and bat training   Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:24 am

Well, I had thought of Rattan, but can't get it here where we live. A ton of Eucalyptus is easier to find, but I'm unsure of it's strenght. I mean, I really don't want to accidentaly break my Pine staff, and all my atempts to get my hands on a propper, oak bo have been infructiferous.
 
That page is a treasure tove for those who can get their hands on rattan Smile
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Cornelius Brunner

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PostSubject: Re: Baton, club, and bat training   Mon Sep 05, 2016 4:51 am

Cocobolo is good, too, they make police batons out of it.
How about bahi? That's just the heart of a palm tree, like a coconut tree.
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